After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[svusa]

Like most of your claims, this seems contrary to known facts.



By "plenty" you mean 'zero' I guess.

there's been evidence that predictions about future delivery dates were wrong.

there's been zero evidence whatsoever those promises were made with the speaker knowingly lying


Oddly one of the FRAUD guys admitted he thinks Elon believed everything he said- which means it's literally not fraud yet keeps going on about fraud anyway.




Less than 5.

FSD was announced Oct 19. 2016.

It'll finally be 5 years next week.


FACTS! TRY THEM SOMETIME!






Yes, and car salesmen NEVER say anything that isn't 1000% accurate, right?

I've been buying cars for a good while, and never encountered anyone selling em who didn't claim things I knew were factually untrue during the sale because I'd actually done some research on what I was spending tens of thousands of dollars on.

In some cases they were clearly just flat lying- in others it appears to be they didn't know the answer and did not want to admit it so they made up some nonsense that wasn't accurate- in others they genuinely thought they were telling the truth by repeating something "they heard" from someone else without having checked.

In 0 cases would I ever "rely" on what the dude not making much to push the car tells me about the car.



That said- feel free to sue for misrepresentation by the salesperson-- that's the basis for the case of the 2 brothers in CA. They haven't won by any means, but the judge at least allowed the case to survive summary judgement for dismissal.

I’m not sure if you are here to help of just bash people… tell me one thing, do you feel Tesla’s FSD marketing tactics are completely ethical or misleading?

 

[Knightshade]

I’m not sure if you are here to help of just bash people…

It's that first one.

It's why I point out when people make claims that aren't true, or for which they've offered no actual evidence.

tell me one thing, do you feel Tesla’s FSD marketing tactics are completely ethical or misleading?

That's entirely subjective.

For example for someone who does some research, takes some time to understand what is or is not being sold, and can tell the difference between forward looking statements and the actual "here's literally what you get right now" statements, they're fine.

For someone who takes everything 1000% literally and immediately, and attributes absolute certainly even to future claims this might cause some misunderstandings.



Elon himself kind of addressed this several years ago during his 60 minutes interview:

"People should not ascribe to malice that which can easily be explained by stupidity." (LAUGHTER) So-- so it's, like, just because I'm, like, dumb at-- at predicting dates does not mean I am untruthful. I don't know-- I-- we've-- I never made a mass-produced car. How am I supposed to know with precision when it's gonna get done?

Now sub in "never made a self-driving system" for "never made a mass-produced car" and the exact same thing applies.

He's consistently believed he's going to deliver both- but consistently struggled to accurately guess when

Turned out he ended up pretty good at delivering the one, and he clearly still believes he can deliver the other even late.


You're welcome to doubt he ever will- but there continues to be zero evidence he ever made a material claim he himself did not believe when he made it.

 

[Terminator857]

Are you wilfully blind to the bold text you just posted (that is not your purchase agreement)??

You and the tag team of whiners should sue rather than bitching and moaning to people that have no control over Tesla.

We get it: you're butt sore. Do something about it???

For as smart as Tesla owners are in general, many can't read or comprehend.

Instead of being an angry curmudgeon, you could just ignore people's pleads for help from being fleeced?

 

[svusa]

You're welcome to doubt he ever will- but there continues to be zero evidence he ever made a material claim he himself did not believe when he made it.

I’m not here to convince you but based on responses from few others it is evident that I’m not the only person who feels Tesla charged me for things they can’t deliver during the useful life of their product.

Anyone who can afford 50k car can probably digest 3K loss but that’s not the point. Tesla knowing exaggerated capabilities of the system to generate more revenue

 

[Knightshade]

I’m not here to convince you but based on responses from few others it is evident that I’m not the only person who feels Tesla charged me for things they can’t deliver during the useful life of their product.

I agree.

But feelings and facts are not the same thing.

Especially in a court of law.

Anyone who can afford 50k car can probably digest 3K loss but that’s not the point. Tesla knowing exaggerated capabilities of the system to generate more revenue

This is yet another absolutely untrue claim from you.

Tesla can not (and has not) recognized a single penny of revenue from undelivered FSD features.

In fact- that money appears as a liability on their books until it is delivered because it represents something they have received $ for without yet delivering.

 

[svusa]

ha ha… I’m sure you are aware that’s accounting gimmick! They did same with ‘smart summons’ delivered half broken product that I could rarely reliably use and realized revenue to show profit.


Same thing will be happening with FSD Beta… get stuck in the drivers seat and be ready to take over at anytime with or without notice because it may decide to do wrong things and you as a driver is always responsible.

Hope I’m completely wrong and Tesla will have working FSD solution by end of next year as advertised.

This is yet another absolutely untrue claim from you.

Tesla can not (and has not) recognized a single penny of revenue from undelivered FSD features.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Tesla can not (and has not) recognized a single penny of revenue from undelivered FSD features.

Interesting - you clearly have more info on their accounting practices than the rest of us. Please educate us and link to source where we can learn how Tesla chose to defer revenue from FSD sales.

I am sure their auditor has access to a CFO signed document with specifics on how to defer and when to recognize revenue for each FSD feature. That will be a super interesting document. Cannot wait for disclosure if this goes to court.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Here are some datapoints

2019 Q2 Earnings call

During TSLA’s Q2 2019 Earnings Call Kirkhorn briefly explained FSD’s revenue recognition. "Note that we continue to defer a significant portion of revenue associated with Full Self-Driving, which will be recognized in future periods. Upon the release of additional features," he said.

2020 Q2 Earnings call

Tesla (TSLA) recognized US$48 million of deferred revenue from its Full Self-Driving (FSD) package sales thanks to the release of its Stop Light and Stop Sign recognition and response feature. It marks a milestone for Tesla and its FSD suite.

“With the release of Stop Light and Stop Sign recognition and response, we recognized $48 million of deferred revenue in the period. The full profit impact on our P&L is less than half of this due to cost associated with FSD computer retrofits in the field,” said Zachary Kirkhorn, Tesla’s CFO.

Would be great to learn specifics...

 

[Knightshade]

ha ha… I’m sure you are aware that’s accounting gimmick!

It's not a gimmick.

It's literally how everyone does accounting

If you have taken money for a thing, and not yet delivered the thing, then it's not recognized on the books as revenue. It's a liability.

You have to deliver the thing to recognize the revenue.

Interesting - you clearly have more info on their accounting practices than the rest of us.

Not at all. See above- this is how accounting works for everyone not just Tesla.

Please educate us and link to source where we can learn how Tesla chose to defer revenue from FSD sales.

You appear to have answered your own question in the post below where you find the CFO himself noting this.

Tesla still has well north of 1 billion dollars in deferred revenue on their books as a liability and it'll remain there until they deliver what they took the money as payment for.


I would expect SOME of that revenue to move to recognized upon a wide (not limited beta) release of city streets- specifically the revenue from the post March 2019 buyers.

They'd still have to keep as a liability the deferred revenue for the pre march 19 buyers since they owe them significantly more.


Specifically from the Q2 2021 balance sheet- (new one will be available next week for Q3 update)

 

[rxlawdude]

Instead of being an angry curmudgeon, you could just ignore people's pleads for help from being fleeced?

Pleas for help? Pleas to whom? Are you seriously expecting for Tesla to respond to these whines?

Whiners, heal thyselves. Take substantive action if you think you have a case. Trial in court, not on TMC.

 

[rxlawdude]

This is a very good question. I would like to know the answer as well.

Ideas from top of my head:

• Initiate arbitration process without hiring a lawyer. Experiences shared on this forum point to it being easy process (with low risk of downside). Would be worth checking out if you are ok with a refund as outcome.
• Initiate arbitration process with a lawyer. While changes of winning might increase, you likely end up paying for your legal representation the same amount you are refunded. Bright side is that a good lawyer will guide you on whether arbitration is the right path or not.
• Take the issue to small claims court (with legal representation)

In most jurisdictions, Small Claims Court is lawyer-free for plaintiff and defendant.

 

[EVNow]

It's a fact that they sold this feature in 2016 and still not deliver. That simple.

That is not the meaning of the lie.

If you forecast / estimate something is going to happen - but if it doesn't happen - the original forecast is not a "lie".

If there is a poll ilke - "will Tesla release the button this year" and 35% say definitely not - are they lying ?

 

[EVNow]

In most jurisdictions, Small Claims Court is lawyer-free for plaintiff and defendant.

Does mandatory arbitration allow small claims court cases ?

ps : Looks like yes.

Getting Into Court by Initiating Arbitration | NCLC Digital Library

A May 2019 Eleventh Circuit decision provides an important illustration of how a consumer can end up in court (even in a class action) when the business does not comply with the arbitration provider’s rules. This article sets out practice tips on how a company’s failure to pay arbitration fees...

library.nclc.org

 

[mark95476]

There are so many that feel cheated on TMC so why are you having problems getting together to scrape-up a few bucks to retain an ambitious lawyer or firm and get these lawsuits launched? Supposedly some of you guys made big $ on trading TSLA. Also, there was a San Francisco-based hedge fund or investment firm that funded a lawsuit by a disgruntled Tesla employee.

This is a very good question. I would like to know the answer as well.

Ideas from top of my head:

• Initiate arbitration process without hiring a lawyer. Experiences shared on this forum point to it being easy process (with low risk of downside). Would be worth checking out if you are ok with a refund as outcome.
• Initiate arbitration process with a lawyer. While changes of winning might increase, you likely end up paying for your legal representation the same amount you are refunded. Bright side is that a good lawyer will guide you on whether arbitration is the right path or not.
• Take the issue to small claims court (with legal representation)
• Find a lawyer who initiates a class action. This will be a large project and the arbitration clause might end up holding in court.
• Complain to service center team. I would not expect this to yield any results.
• Complain to SEC. Consider with your legal team if you have lost millions trading TSLA.
• Complain to FTC. Does not sound likely that they would solve your case, but when they receive many complaints they might decide to pursue this.

Any other ideas?

- Complain to State Consumer Affairs or Attorney's office
- Complain to Senator/Local Congressman ??

 

[Tesomega]

That is not the meaning of the lie.

If you forecast / estimate something is going to happen - but if it doesn't happen - the original forecast is not a "lie".

If there is a poll ilke - "will Tesla release the button this year" and 35% say definitely not - are they lying ?

Well.. there is a context element to this correct? For e.g: When Tesla said that FSD will be delivered once they get Regulatory approval and says that by end of the year they will be doing a Coast to Coast FSD run (I am talking 2017). One would arguably assume that the FSD software is already complete and just needs regulator approval (Tesla marketing videos of FSD functionality shown); would you consider this as a lie or Tesla did not tell the truth on exactly were they were in the development process ?

 

[t3sl4drvr]

appear to have answered your own question in the post below where you find the CFO himself noting this.

Not at all. Tesla does not have to disclose their accounting practices for revenue recognization and if I am not mistaken, they have chosen to keep them secret. Auditor judges if the documented recognization practice conforms to (unfortunately very vague) GAAP guidance on the matter. CFO commentary gives away little on how they treat FSD features.

Questions on my mind:

• Which features specifically they are waiting for to be able to recognize?
• How much they expect to recognize for each feature?
• How GA vs Beta is factored in?
• Do they L2, L4 vs L5 written out in the guidance
• Is "Tesla Network" (robotaxis) mentioned due to them having that in product materials and as the foundation for claiming "appreciating asset"
• Does recognization differ for FSD purchases at different times (with different marketing communications)

One thing that (maybe accidentally) disclosed in CFO statements: They consider beta feature to be at least partially delivered by the fact thaty they did recognize revenue from shipping beta of "traffic lights" feature. This is interesting.

 

[DaveG_NJ]

As a full-price buyer of FSD, I would jump at a chance for a refund, even a pro-rated one, but that will never happen. A class-action lawsuit might be successful if FSD proves to be undeliverable, but the lawyers would get most of the proceeds and I'd lose far more in a hit to the stock. I agree in principle that we were largely duped, but honestly, we don't have a contract -- only an ever-changing couple of paragraphs on a web page loaded with wiggle room.

Before I paid $8,600 for FSD (+tax), I thought about just investing it in more TSLA stock. That would be worth about $18,000 today. I chose poorly and instead have a few party tricks and more lofty promises from Elon. Live and learn. I plan to keep my Tesla another 3 years and buy another EV, which I seriously doubt will be a Tesla.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

As a full-price buyer of FSD, I would jump at a chance for a refund, even a pro-rated one, but that will never happen.

@rxlawdude is right - you have fight for your right or you will not get it.

To me the most likely paths for getting FSD purchase price back (whether that is $3,000 or $10,000) would seem to be a) arbitration or b) small claims court. Ask guidance from someone who is sufficiently experienced in the practicalities of these options (that is definitely not me) and go for it. And please share your experience here.

 

[Knightshade]

Not at all. Tesla does not have to disclose their accounting practices for revenue recognization and if I am not mistaken, they have chosen to keep them secret.

How are they any more "secret" than that of any other company?

They follow GAAP. Revenue for undelivered product is a liability.

I just showed you the line item in the balance sheet.

[*]Which features specifically they are waiting for to be able to recognize?
[*]How much they expect to recognize for each feature?
[*]How GA vs Beta is factored in?

For March 2019 and later buyers- which at this point would be the majority of buyers- all features are delivered and recognized already except city streets.

They've only ever recognized for general release. (City streets is the only thing they've ever "released" to a limited beta group- they began doing this over a year ago- and have not recognized any revenue for doing so)

[*]Do they L2, L4 vs L5 written out in the guidance

The question doesn't really make sense.

Nothing above L2 was promised during the purchase/sales process to 3/19 and newer buyers.

Pre-3/19 buyers were promised a minimum of L4, and thus are still owed that.

Currently the ONLY feature pre-3/19 FSD buyers have had ANY of their revenue recognized on is the stoplight/stop sign feature (which you quoted the CFO as citing a specific # for, though some of it would be to pre and some to post 3/19 since both were getting a feature they'd paid for)

[*]Is "Tesla Network" (robotaxis) mentioned due to them having that in product materials and as the foundation for claiming "appreciating asset"

Nothing in the sales process ever promised robotaxis. Ever.

There's some wording about the Tesla network but it explicitly pointed out it was NOT providing any promises or details as part of the sale at the time.

[*]Does recognization differ for FSD purchases at different times (with different marketing communications)

They would have to- as different things were promised.

The most obvious example is smart summon.

For pre March 2019 buyers that is not part of FSD at all

It's part of EAP.

In fact it was the last EAP feature to be delivered- and so Tesla was able to fully recognize all remaining deferred EAP revenue at that time.

They also were able to recognize a small amount of post 3/19 FSD revenue, since for post 3/19 buyers smart summon was part of the new FSD package they bought.

One thing that (maybe accidentally) disclosed in CFO statements: They consider beta feature to be at least partially delivered by the fact thaty they did recognize revenue from shipping beta of "traffic lights" feature. This is interesting.

Not really.

Autosteer is in beta. Has been since launch. So is TACC.

The word "beta" has no bearing on anything financial here.

Only general availability.

It's available to everyone who paid for it- so they can recognize all the revenue taken in for it.

City Streets has NOT been released generally- so despite being in narrow release for over a year now they've recognized NONE of that revenue.

When it goes to wide release they will.

Most likely this will happen by GEO- as it's almost certainly going to be released widely in the US before it is in say the EU or China.

(That said- most of the deferred revenue is in the US anyway)

 

[t3sl4drvr]

I'd lose far more in a hit to the stock

You are just waiting inevitable holding something with P/E > 400