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Adding a circuit to back up load center post-install

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I am not sure I understand which panel has the 225 Amp rating? That sounds like a main panel? 120% of that is 270 so 330 exceeds that so I am guessing that you could put the water heater there until an electrician figures it out.
Sorry, the backup load center has a 225A rating on the bus bar. There is a 125A backfeed breaker from the Tesla gateway, and 330A of breakers feeding loads.
The main panel has a 200A main breaker, and a 125A breaker to the gateway, and no other loads. Not sure what the bus bar rating is > 200A, but I can check if necessary.

I could land the 30A breaker for the hot water heater on the main panel until I get the OK for adding it to the backup load center.

From reading the other thread, if the warning placard is literally just about accepting the liability, and I have the information I need to assess whether this additional load is within design limits of the powerwalls, I can install the circuit myself and sidestep the issue of finding a electrician willing to do the work out of liability concerns. I just need to understand if the warning placard is the word of God, or a warning to electricians, or something the inspector cares about.

I have started the process of getting input from Tesla (only 30 minutes on hold and one dropped call). It's been referred to the design team; that was a several week exercise before install; we'll see what the time frame is post-install. I'll also call my local building department tomorrow and see what they say.
 
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OK, so a one line diagram would really help clarify what your electrical system is.

But, when I hear the phrase "back up load panel" I think of a panel with a single source of supply (single set of wires with incoming power) that lands on a main breaker (or backfed breaker in a regular position on an otherwise MLO panel) and has a bunch of loads in it, and is behind the Gateway. No Powerwalls landing on breakers, no solar breakers, just the one power source.

Such a panel (or really any panel with only a single source of supply) does not have any special NEC restrictions on adding loads to it. Since it's behind the Gateway, the available power is limited during a grid outage, and Tesla's rule of thumb is that the max breaker size should not exceed 30A * number of Powerwalls (assuming it hasn't changed).

So there's no other limit on adding loads to that panel. And if it were me, I'd eliminate the "Caution: do not add loads" label. As for permitting purposes for a HPWH, what should be required (not saying your building department will get this right) is just a load calculation showing that your total house load is under 125A. Which it needs to be NEC-wise, since everything is on a single 125A feeder. [Although even if the load calc came up with 150A, in practice it would probably work fine on a 125A breaker; residential load calcs in the NEC are very conservative.]

Cheers, Wayne
 
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330A of breakers feeding loads.
FYI, this computation is not useful to do. An NEC load calculation is required.

Sorry, the backup load center has a 225A rating on the bus bar. There is a 125A backfeed breaker from the Tesla gateway [. . .]
The main panel has a 200A main breaker, and a 125A breaker to the gateway, and no other loads. Not sure what the bus bar rating is > 200A, but I can check if necessary.

BTW, the main panel, assuming a 200A bus, should have a label on it saying "warning blah blah the sum of all breakers except the main should not exceed 200A". That means it's OK for your to add up to 75A (double pole) of non-backup loads to your main panel.

Mostly likely the only reason that the breaker to the Gateway (and main breaker in your back up loads panel) is only 125A instead of 200A is that your main panel is too old to accept a 200A branch breaker. Plus it saves a little on smaller wires for the feeders.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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Such a panel (or really any panel with only a single source of supply) does not have any NEC restrictions on adding loads to it.
Thanks, that was the fuzzy part of the 120% rule that i was not clear about. Presumably the Powerwall comes through the gateway and the gateway is the single source of supply. The gateway gets its power from the grid or Powerwall. Is that correct?
 
We just got our PTO from PG&E on our system last week, and because our gas hot water heater just failed, I would like to add a 30A circuit for a heat pump hybrid water heater. I need some help to understand what type of load calculation I may need to show the building department to add another circuit. My primary concern is that the backup load center has a bright red placard stating “Caution do not add new loads”, and I’m just not sure how that affects how an inspector evaluates an additional circuit.

Specifics:
6.46 kW solar, two Powerwall system, whole home backup (Square D panel fed by 125A breaker)
No AC, gas-fired furnace, gas dryer (for now), gas water heater (RIP). Our only 240V load is the mobile charger for our Model 3.

We basically maxed out our S and W facing roof area with panels knowing that we would initially be a net exporter, but planned to electrify NG appliances over time to export less. I let our project advisor know that the only reason I was willing to go with the Tesla plan of filling our roof was because we were planning on this electrification of more appliances. In the PG&E PTO application, Tesla included their estimate of 20% increase of electricity usage (though I think that Tesla includes whatever they need to get an oversized system approved by PG&E without really considering the implications of a usage increase with a whole home backup).

We plan on running the water heater in heat pump only mode (1.2 kW). We’re replacing our 50 gallon gas heater with a 65 gallon model because of the longer recovery time for operating in this mode. We will also use a higher tank temp. with a hot water tempering valve to further minimize the effects of the heat pump-only mode recovery time. If this still isn’t enough, we may need to operate it in “Energy Saver” mode (4.5 kW), but I never see us needing to operate it in “High Demand” mode (5.7 kW)

Our background level usage is around 0.7 kW, with spikes up to approx. 2 kW. Outside of charging activity, I’ve only seen a single short spike over 3 kW in the last two weeks. Since that the two PowerWall configuration provides 10 kW continuous, with 14 kW peak, I don’t see any problem with adding this load. I realize that during an outage we may have to manage our usage a little more carefully, but given our excess solar production and the ease of adjusting the energy usage of the hot water heater via app control, I don’t see our energy demands even remotely approaching system limits.

Given the difficulty of getting our project advisor to return calls while our project was active, I’m not confident that I can get information from Tesla in a reasonable time frame. I was hoping folks in this forum might have gone through a circuit expansion, or have other experience that could provide guidance on what calculation or information our AHJ might want to see at inspection that would allow them to be comfortable with an additional 30A circuit in the panel (given the placard warning).


The glib answer is remove the sticker, higher a competent electrician. Tesla loves to slap those stickers on without thinking. Don't bother trying to talk to Tesla.

I see @wwhitney has already given good advice.

I see that you already have a sense of how much real draw happens in the real world. The proliferation of dedicated circuits serves a useful function in isolating failure domains but it doesn't necessarily mean a corresponding increase actual load. I currently have 4 circuits that correspond to charging stations. I've never charged more than two cars at once.

BTW I installed a Rheem heat pump water heater last year at my rental property in heat pump mode. While I was waiting for a panel upgrade I ran it temporarily on 20A 240V circuit in heat pump only mode. Are you in Silicon Valley Clean Energy territory? SVCE had incentives that I took advantage of. When we do next remodel for the house we're living in, I'm switching it to a heat pump water heater. I already got PG&E to switch my baseline to electric heat since I've been heating the house with a heat pump.
 
The glib answer is remove the sticker, higher a competent electrician. Tesla loves to slap those stickers on without thinking. Don't bother trying to talk to Tesla.

I see @wwhitney has already given good advice.

I see that you already have a sense of how much real draw happens in the real world. The proliferation of dedicated circuits serves a useful function in isolating failure domains but it doesn't necessarily mean a corresponding increase actual load. I currently have 4 circuits that correspond to charging stations. I've never charged more than two cars at once.

BTW I installed a Rheem heat pump water heater last year at my rental property in heat pump mode. While I was waiting for a panel upgrade I ran it temporarily on 20A 240V circuit in heat pump only mode. Are you in Silicon Valley Clean Energy territory? SVCE had incentives that I took advantage of. When we do next remodel for the house we're living in, I'm switching it to a heat pump water heater. I already got PG&E to switch my baseline to electric heat since I've been heating the house with a heat pump.
My installers took pictures of EVERYTHING! So if one were to mess around, say good by warranty. I was told that tesla allows NO stickers or anything on there stuff or warranty voided.
 
Thanks, that was the fuzzy part of the 120% rule that i was not clear about. Presumably the Powerwall comes through the gateway and the gateway is the single source of supply. The gateway gets its power from the grid or Powerwall. Is that correct?
Electrically, Gateway V1 (other than the rare case that it has a circuit breaker installed for use as the service disconnect) is just a switch. Gateway V2 may also contain an internal panelboard, but for purposes of design, that's no different than an external panelboard, it just saves an enclosure. So I just think of the Gateway as a switch (more properly Microgrid Interconnect Device).

The typical way to install the Gateway is in an H topology, where the horizontal bar of the H has the Gateway, and the 4 ends of the H are the grid supply, an (optional) non-backup load panel, a generation panel (solar and PW breakers) and a backup load panel. The latter 2 are on one side of the Gateway, and the first two are on the other. The two load panels (backup and non-backup) generally have main breakers (otherwise the feeder segments supplying them would need upsizing) and have only a single source of supply, so the 120% rule and its ilk don't apply to them.

The only panels with more than one source of supply would be the generation panel and possibly the main panel (if there's a panel, in a new install it could be just a service disconnect, no distribution breakers). So those are the only two panels subject to the 120% rule or the 100% rule. And typically the 100% rule is used: the sum of the breakers, other than the main breaker, must not exceed the rating of the bus. For the generation panel that just means the bus rating is at least the sum of the PW breaker(s) and the PV breaker(s) (or rather for the latter 125% of the PV inverter output current(s)). For the main panel, typically there would be a single distribution breaker matching the main breaker (or a set of feed thru lugs); or if the branch breaker is smaller, you could put some non-backup loads there, up to the difference.

The upshot is that PW installs according to this design never use the 120% rule.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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I'm reading through this and without basically a bunch of pictures and a one line diagram I cannot be 100% sure if this sticker is required by code, an advisory/warning to other installers, or just improperly labeled.

Wayne seems correct about the limitation of the load calculations, and the sizing of loads. If you have 2 Powerwalls then you can have up to a 60A branch circuit breaker on the backup side.

If all your PV and Powerwalls land inside the gateway as is typical then this is the only panel that is restricted by the 100% or 120% rules. If for some reason your generation is split up into multiple panels then this advice may not apply.

Assuming your backup load subpanel contains only loads, is sized 225A with a 125A main breaker then adding another 30A to the panel poses no risks as long as the load calculations work out. I would remove the label "No additional loads."

I typically add a label "No branch circuit loads larger than 90/120/150A to be installed in this panel" which more accurately describes the limitation than "No additional loads"
 
If what you mean by upstream is the main panel, that could be a workaround. I am not sure what you mean by they "weren't metered" but i assume you mean not metered by Tesla's meter. Otherwise If there is a way to have some slots ahead of the utility meter I am sure many would be interested.
:) :)


Sorry, I meant slots that were upstream of the Tesla Energy Gateway. For example, most homes with a Gateway probably go like this:

PG&E Meter >> Main Service Panel >> Some baller-ass-disconnect >> Tesla Energy Gateway >> Backup Loads

So the electricians will land a breaker on the main service panel, or a sub-panel that is upstream of the energy gateway. But since there is no Current Transducer heading up that way, the Energy Gateway wouldn't be able to sense those loads (to meter those loads). That meant that when the utility was online, the Batteries wouldn't be able to be instructed to push extra energy upstream to feed those loads. This is important to help you use your stored solar energy as efficiently as possible.

Of course if the power from PG&E goes out, then the upstream loads will not get any power from the batteries since they're not backed up.
 
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FWIW it seems Tesla has a "sticker guy or gal" that comes afterwards and applies stickers. Given the historical quality of information being passed between people at Tesla I wouldn't bet my life on the stickers being applied correctly. They labeled the new PV and powerwall breakers incorrectly, the breakers weren't where they originally because they had swap and move them out since they didn't have the right ones. I've already removed those labels/stickers and applied correct ones (for my own sanity). The rapid shutdown sticker they applied to my panel is misleading, I have 3 PV systems only of one them as rapid shutdown. The sticker on the main panel lists the amperage of the PV system only reflects the current one. Previous stickers and placards went away with load center replacements.

I try to get the single line of the project (which Tesla doesn't give you by default) and I make sure I understand how things are put together.
 
Traditionally the verbiage on “emergency” systems was something like “Load shall not be added without engineer of record review and approval.” The engineer of record can essentially be any licensed electrical engineer, they just need to do a load calculation. You should be fine for the hot water heater, but replacing the gas dryer is going to be a challenge without some kind of load shed device.

For single-family residential I don’t think there is any way to do a load calculation based on demand load; you have to use the prescribed calculation which is always high. I am going to try to use my home automation system for load management, not sure how much flexibility that will really add though.
 
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Traditionally the verbiage on “emergency” systems was something like “Load shall not be added without engineer of record review and approval.” The engineer of record can essentially be any licensed electrical engineer, they just need to do a load calculation. You should be fine for the hot water heater, but replacing the gas dryer is going to be a challenge without some kind of load shed device.

For single-family residential I don’t think there is any way to do a load calculation based on demand load; you have to use the prescribed calculation which is always high. I am going to try to use my home automation system for load management, not sure how much flexibility that will really add though.
This is why its important to recognize that most Tesla Powerwall are "Optional Backup Systems" Which can operate but are not code required to operate.

Emergency backup systems are a different category from Code perspective.
 
I heard back from Tesla today, so I guess I owe them an apology for implying that their customer service wouldn't provide an answer in a reasonable amount of time. The voice mail message stated that the designer ran the load calculation and I should be fine to add the hot water heater. I had provided them with the Rheem model number and all of the specifications, I'm not sure if that influenced the calculation or not, or if they just assumed a worst case 30A load. They said that if there are any questions from the electrician to have them call Tesla and there is a department that handles that type of issue, though they didn't specify what department that is. Since I'm pulling the permit and will be doing the work myself, the issue of who to call is likely moot, though it might come up if the building inspector wants to verify the load calculation.

They also noted that the sub-panel had a 30A dryer circuit in it, so they seem to be extracting fairly detailed information from the pictures that are collected either during the purchase process or the site visit. Their advice was not to run a dryer and the hot water heater during an outage or it may shut down the Powerwall. When I moved into the house it included both a dryer circuit and a gas line; we've been using the gas dryer that we already owned, but this clears the way for electrifying that appliance as well, though I'm not sure if we'll wait for its EOL or we'll convert it before then.

So at least in our case, the 30A circuit per Powerwall rule of thumb seems to hold (new 30A circuit in back up load panel, existing 30A dryer circuit in a sub-panel fed by the backup load panel). Anecdotally the 50A charging circuit doesn't seem to be of concern, perhaps because they know our Model 3 will limit its current draw during an outage.

Answering some of the other comments that have come in since I last posted...
@arnolddeleon @Ampster @Vines I considered removing the sticker, but if it was added at the request of the local inspector I would be creating problems for myself when the inspector came out for the new circuit. (I'll be sure to ask the inspector when they come out if they required it).

@charlesj I could have wired via the 90A sub-panel, but a) that wiring path would have been very painful, and b) violating the spirit, but not the letter of electrical requirements isn't really my style.

@arnolddeleon I'm not in SVCE territory, but Electrify Marin is offering a $1K rebate, and with the $300 federal tax credit for a heat pump hot water heater, it makes the high upfront cost of these less painful.

Personally, I don't think it's really sustainable to have all of their customers consult back with Tesla to perform any electrical upgrade or remodel for the purpose of them performing the load calculation. SInce the formula for the load calculation (based on the Powerwall output specs?) doesn't seem to be published anywhere, I guess I still don't understand how a licensed electrician knows exactly what Tesla wants them to consider. I think it's the whole ambiguity of the sticker that raised questions in mind, and it sounds like others here. Is it to protect the Powerwall warranty or some other overcurrent condition? Is it a local AHJ requirement? It doesn't seem to be related to any NEC rules for sub-panels.

Anyway, I got the outcome I wanted in a reasonable time frame. I'll report back if I learn anything relevant from my inspector.

Also attaching some pics since there were some questions on the connection topology (and to let everyone else appreciate the glory of "the sticker")
PXL_20210421_165151509.jpg
PXL_20210421_165216126.jpg
 
we've been using the gas dryer that we already owned, but this clears the way for electrifying that appliance as well, though I'm not sure if we'll wait for its EOL or we'll convert it before then.
I bought a new electric dryer three and a half years ago. At that time the heat pump versions were expensive and hard to find. The offerings were also sparse but I see more today. We don't use the dryer that often and I have a lot of excess TOU kWrs at True Up so it is not a high priority for us either. I still have a gas range and gas furnace. They are on my list as well.
 
I'm not in SVCE territory, but Electrify Marin is offering a $1K rebate, and with the $300 federal tax credit for a heat pump hot water heater, it makes the high upfront cost of these less painful.
I am in Sonoma Clean Power but their HPWH required a professional install which took the price to much more than what I could buy and self install it for. This was a replacement and Home Depot lead time was ten days so I found a supplier in Santa Rosa that delivered for free and took the old one away.