0543 is not feeling well...

[hsull8915]

So, after reading all of this and the many threads in which people discuss these fan and/or PEM failures here's what I'm thinking. I can reconcile the fact that they didn't just roll out these new fans to everyone for free. I don't like it, but I can accept it. What I am having trouble being ok with, is how in the world does any Roadster go through an annual service since 2013 when this was clearly a known issue without the service team recommending the fan upgrade at full retail cost to the customer?! It would have been a revenue opportunity for them and it could have saved many customers (perhaps myself) from spending upwards of $10k on a PEM replacement.

Knowing that they did the annual service on 543 a week before this failure and gave it a clean bill of health with the old fan system, is it fair to say that there is at least some shared responsibility if they determine that the lack of adequate cooling contributed to the overheating and failure? I know it's easy to say in hindsight but I am very much a "better safe than sorry" type of person so I am 100% certain I would have paid just about whatever they asked for the new fans if it were recommended to me.

 

[Roadster]

...I wanted a second opinion from the tech and service manager that @DeedWest recommended to me (and that I asked for to begin with, but they are in CA doing training).

If this sounds like anything less than complete incompetence and throwing parts at a problem they don't understand to someone here, please let me know.

Good call waiting on the 2nd opinion. Upon their return from training, you should certainly play the "goodwill" angle to see what they can do for you since (a) they did just recently give her a clean bill of health from the annual service and (b) you're an M☰ reservation holder.

BTW, is anything unusual listed in the logs prior to 10:10pm on 8/17? Also, you mentioned it recently rained that day prior to your commute home. There was no unusually heavy water ingress was there?

 

[hsull8915]

Good call waiting on the 2nd opinion. Upon their return from training, you should certainly play the "goodwill" angle to see what they can do for you since (a) they did just recently give her a clean bill of health from the annual service and (b) you're an M☰ reservation holder.

BTW, is anything unusual listed in the logs prior to 10:10pm on 8/17? Also, you mentioned it recently rained that day prior to your commute home. There was no unusually heavy water ingress was there?

Thanks Roadster, I hope you are right and there is a goodwill discussion to be had here if the PEM really does need to be replaced.

Nothing on the logs prior to that first alert at 10:10, that was the first time I had seen anything on the touchscreen other than door ajar lol. Never any warnings or anything but to be fair I had driven it all of about 200 miles. No heavy water that day, just light showers and I had the car under cover when it was raining anyway.

 

[ion_1]

If there was an issue of documented overheating, I could see the case for immediate recommendation for the upgrade by SC. Otherwise, SC may feel there was no reason for the recommendation as the roadster was running fine.

Hopefully yours may not even be a serious PEM or even a PEM issue. Regardless, I would still recommend the upgrade if you are willing to purchase it and have worries about high heat. @gregd made a good point about the connectors earlier in the thread, this is one downside of the upgrade.Reminds me I need to check mine...

 

[ion_1]

How much modification, if any, is needed to convert the separate fans to the dual unit? Looks like SPAL sells Double Wheel units direct-to-consumer here so perhaps that's one item you can DIY? Though... knowing TM, it's probably a custom item, right? @ion_1 do you have the P/N?

just a note to remember there is more than the fan as at least the mounting plate to the plenum and roll bar need to be acquired.

 

[bart513]

My guess is that being one week out from an annual servicing they will do the right thing , if not go up the management chain. It is very possible that the service may have contributed accidentally to the overheating problem.

 

[ML Auto]

I doubt the single fan upgrade does much for cooling the PEM better, as the total CFM is only 23 CFM more (661 vs 319 each) than the two separate units together. Half of it goes to the motor and half to the PEM, as each fan wheel is ducted separate. It does however draw only 13.1 amps (@24v) vs 19.6 amps (@12v) for each single one. It was probably done for the burned fan connector issue rather than anything else. I would assume they connect both 12v fan feeds in series to get 24v and turn them on at the same time with the firmware update. That would reduce the amperage thru the connectors by 6 amps.

 

[gregd]

I doubt the single fan upgrade does much for cooling the PEM better, as the total CFM is only 23 CFM more (661 vs 319 each) than the two separate units together. Half of it goes to the motor and half to the PEM, as each fan wheel is ducted separate. It does however draw only 13.1 amps (@24v) vs 19.6 amps (@12v) for each single one. It was probably done for the burned fan connector issue rather than anything else. I would assume they connect both 12v fan feeds in series to get 24v and turn them on at the same time with the firmware update. That would reduce the amperage thru the connectors by 6 amps.

Ahhh... So THAT's what happened! I was getting some errors in the log a while back, and after deciding not to replace most of the drive train (PEM, Motor) since the car was otherwise driving fine, the tech at the Rocklin SC figured out that my PEM Fan Motor was wired incorrectly. The service rep interpreting the diagnosis didn't know what that meant, but the errors have gone away, and the PEM is definitely running cooler. Now I know! The car has the fan upgrade (done some time before I purchased it), but it sounds like they missed doing the wiring change that is part of the overall solution.

 

[hsull8915]

Well fam, it seems to all be over but the crying. Second opinion confirmed full replacement of PEM and fan. Roughly $11,500. I asked every question I could think of, "could it be this or that" "can you check fuses/connections/etc." The service manager was polite, informative, and seemed to be sympathetic but insisted there was nothing left to check. Apparently they "aren't authorized to open the PEM up and try to fix the internals once it dies."

Bummed for sure, but looking forward to having my car once it's all done. This Model S is nice but the allure has worn off and there's a list of reasons I choose the Roadster over a CPO S, so I'm ready to give it back.

 

[ML Auto]

Contact Gruber before you spend your money.

Tesla Roadster PEM Remanufacturing & Upgrade | eBay

And did they check to see if the cooling hose fell off? The fact that the fan was running and not cooling at all means there was no airflow to the PEM.

 

[gregd]

And did they check to see if the cooling hose fell off? The fact that the fan was running and not cooling at all means there was no airflow to the PEM.

I thought I read that he felt the unit and it didn't seem all that hot. So, perhaps the lack of cooling was because the sensor(s) weren't indicating properly? Just saying, when hardware fails, the resulting symptoms can be unpredictable. But, your point about the cooling hose is extremely important. Even if the PEM is indeed toast, cause should be identified. Things don't often fail for no reason, and the chronological proximity to the service event is interesting, if nothing else.

All that said, I really don't like the lack of (or the excuse for) not being able to crack open the PEM to replace internal stuff like fuses and sub-assemblies. It's almost like doing an ICE engine swap to replace a bad water pump. At least they should give us the option for shipping the PEM back to the factory (or wherever) for a repair, vs a unit swap. Time vs money. And, with the stock of replacement units dwindling, there may some day be no alternative to an internal repair.

 

[ML Auto]

The fact that is was getting hotter while the fan was running and cooled down after everything was shut down tells me that there was no air flow. Unless he was just hearing the coolant pump and not the fan...

 

[gregd]

The fact that is was getting hotter while the fan was running and cooled down after everything was shut down tells me that there was no air flow. Unless he was just hearing the coolant pump and not the fan...

Oh, right. I presume it was also loud enough that it couldn't have been the coolant pump.

Thinking of my earlier reply (about the wiring), I wonder if the wiring to the two fans got swapped? Car trying to cool the PEM, and instead kept driving the fan to the motor?

 

[bart513]

@hsull8915 where ru located?

 

[ML Auto]

Thinking of my earlier reply (about the wiring), I wonder if the wiring to the two fans got swapped? Car trying to cool the PEM, and instead kept driving the fan to the motor?

That could be a possibility, as looking at the temps, the motor is at 31C, which is low during PEM cooling, as the outlet from the PEM blows directly on the motor, usually warming it up into the 40s. Definitely no flow thru the PEM. I would definitely look into that before spending a dime. It still sounds like the place that did the service still might be responsible. Get someone other than Tesla to come in and look at the airflow thru the PEM to determine the original cause.

 

[hsull8915]

@hsull8915 where ru located?

North of Fort Worth, TX. 543 is at the Dallas Service Center

That could be a possibility, as looking at the temps, the motor is at 31C, which is low during PEM cooling, as the outlet from the PEM blows directly on the motor, usually warming it up into the 40s. Definitely no flow thru the PEM. I would definitely look into that before spending a dime. It still sounds like the place that did the service still might be responsible. Get someone other than Tesla to come in and look at the airflow thru the PEM to determine the original cause.

I'm really at a loss here guys. The Dallas Service Center are also the ones who did the annual. I have no idea who I would even ask to look at it other than Tesla. I appreciate the suggestions, but I am not a very technical individual (which, in hindsight, maybe not the right choice of car but oh well). Also, I don't know that I have the will/motivation to fight with them about this. I know that sounds ridiculous in the face of spending over $11k and it's not that I'm wealthy and the money doesn't matter, it's just that I don't want to sacrifice a bunch of other things in my life (time with wife/work/etc.) to try to prove them wrong. I'm just going to take it in the gut and try to be happy with the 2 year warranty I'll get on the PEM and fan.

At this point it's looking likely that I'll be replacing this with a Model 3 next year. I never wanted an S/X due to not liking big vehicles, but I think I could be happy with the 3, and I don't know that I could feel good about keeping this car as a daily driver for years to come.

 

[thefortunes]

North of Fort Worth, TX. 543 is at the Dallas Service Center



I'm really at a loss here guys. The Dallas Service Center are also the ones who did the annual. I have no idea who I would even ask to look at it other than Tesla. I appreciate the suggestions, but I am not a very technical individual (which, in hindsight, maybe not the right choice of car but oh well). Also, I don't know that I have the will/motivation to fight with them about this. I know that sounds ridiculous in the face of spending over $11k and it's not that I'm wealthy and the money doesn't matter, it's just that I don't want to sacrifice a bunch of other things in my life (time with wife/work/etc.) to try to prove them wrong. I'm just going to take it in the gut and try to be happy with the 2 year warranty I'll get on the PEM and fan.

At this point it's looking likely that I'll be replacing this with a Model 3 next year. I never wanted an S/X due to not liking big vehicles, but I think I could be happy with the 3, and I don't know that I could feel good about keeping this car as a daily driver for years to come.

I certainly understand your position, but if it were me I would at least inquire about the ideas posted in this thread with the Dallas Service Center manager (or higher):
1) They just did the annual service (less than 200 miles ago) and found nothing wrong
2) The fans were constantly running (they will be able to see this in the logs) yet performing no cooling of the PEM. That tells us (armchair mechanics who may collectively know our Roadsters as well as a tech) that either the duct was not properly reattached, there was a blockage in the duct/PEM, the wiring was not properly reattached, or (since you have dual fans) the PEM fan was not actually working. (I may have missed other hypotheses).
3) Their inadequate response to your initial request for help may have exacerbated the situation (a PEM sitting at 60C and not cooling needs attention, instead they gave you the runaround about "not being the owner of record," etc...)

P.S. As someone who unfortunately has had a PEM fan replaced, I only received a 1 year/12k mile warranty. If you do get them replaced and find otherwise I would like to hear about it.

Good luck!

 

[ML Auto]

The hose is pretty easy for you to see if it is connected, all you need is a flashlight. Here are some pics. The first one is from the side to give you an idea of what you are looking at overall (ignore the duct tape). The second is from the top with the PEM slightly moved rearward for you to see you what to look for. The last one is what you will actually see when looking down between the Battery and the PEM.

On the far left of the battery you will see the warning decals on the battery-see pic #2. When you look down the 1/2 inch space between the battery and the PEM at that point, you can see the 3 inch orange corrugated cooling hose. If you just see the edge and it looks like is facing straight up, it is connected- you can just see the wire reinforcement on the hose in pic #3. If the hose is off it will be facing forward and you will see the side of it or even the actual inside. It is hard to get a good pic, but fairly easy to see in person. If the black plastic duct came off, you will be able to see its funnel shape and will not see the hose at all. Review the pic by step #30 on the 2.5 cleaning sticky thread for another good pic. $11.5K vs 5 minutes of your time. Its your choice. If you see anything other than what looks like a connected hose, I would have them remove the PEM right in front of you (it only takes about 1/2 hour) to verify that they did the service correctly. I would do that anyway, as the technician is probably the same one that did it in the first place, and would sure not volunteer info that he made a $11.5K mistake.

 

[DeedWest]

I am extremely disappointed at their response of "we don't open them up to fix the root issues".

What. The.

This bugs me. I'd imagine Tesla loses some money every time a Model S / X motor, drivetrain, battery, etc. is replaced under their (rather excellent) 8 year warranty. It's what makes driving a Tesla worth it over any other car. It's piece of mind on new technology. And this is for...180,000+ cars on the road? Maybe more?

Would them offering support at the very least to...I don't know...roughly less than 2,300 Roadsters remaining in the world be that big of a deal financially? And I mean real support - train 1 service center technician at each SC to actually fix root issues. Not this whole "something's wrong...replace the entire thing."

Who knows. It might even entice people to drive what in my opinion is the most exciting car Tesla may ever produce. And it may even prevent these cars from having future issues in the first place. And it might get people to drive them instead of letting them sit and languish with 5,000 miles on the clock.

 

[gregd]

I pressed the local SC on the issue with them not opening the PEM for service about a year or so ago. The head of service here is a one of the original Roadster techs (and we're really fortunate and thankful he's here!), so I do grant him a bit of credibility. His statement was that the PEMs aren't designed ESD-wise for the kind of environment that exists in a service center, so cracking one open could precipitate failures down the road.

Coming from an engineering background, I can see this as probably valid, but I also understand that mitigating the risk is just a matter of some training and some small investment in proper ESD equipment (e.g. wrist straps). Given the increasingly difficult parts pipeline, and the decreasing relative density of Roadsters, we're facing an escalation of two opposing forces. Which one will win out is beyond my pay grade.