Tesla Lining Up Broadside Attack On Auto Industry Lobbying

Ktowntslafan · Nov 1, 2015

Tesla Lining Up Broadside Attack on Auto Industry Lobbying | CleanTechnica

Why in the world are we all collectively subsidizing the Oil and Gas industry?:
"The IMF estimates that governments are providing a $5.3 trillion US "subsidy" to the fossil fuel sector in 2015 by failing to account for its harmful effects on the environment and human health."
Fossil fuels get global $5.3 trillion 'subsidy': IMF report - Business - CBC News

Thank you VW for waking us all up! Enough is enough-it's time for action! The time is now in advance of the UN Climate Change Conference Nov. 30th in Paris. Imagine if we collectively redirected our tax dollars towards accelerating the advent of sustainable transport. How many GIGAfactories does 5.3 trillion buy? How quickly would they come on line, how quickly could we all breathe easier?

Norway is the "best practice" for EV penetration globally. Every country can and should follow their leadership. Further discussion here:

New york times-ev incentives

And Canada specific action here:

Help tesla realize their vision - vote for federal ev incentives!

We all have a voice. If we choose to send the same message to our leaders we will make a difference. Thirty days to UN Climate Conference.

Anyone care to join the "David and Goliath" fight and support Tesla?

Elon Musk: Big Oil Attacking EVs is | Inside EVs

Ktowntslafan · Nov 1, 2015

Ktowntslafan said:
We all have a voice. If we choose to send the same message to our leaders we will make a difference. Thirty days to UN Climate Conference.

Anyone care to join the "David and Goliath" fight and support Tesla?

I think this is a pretty good base to start from...no?

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Ktowntslafan · Nov 1, 2015

This is pure insanity...how do we all sit idle while this happens everyday?:

Volts for Oil | Fully Charged - YouTube

Amazing video! Share with your political leader.

Jeff N · Nov 1, 2015

Ktowntslafan said:
This is pure insanity...how do we all sit idle while this happens everyday?:

Volts for Oil | Fully Charged - YouTube

Amazing video! Share with your political leader.

Amazingly bad video.... I love Fully Charged but this particular episode is full-on factually incorrect nonsense.

See this discussion from an earlier thread:
Tesla vs ICE pollution - Page 2

Room_A113 · Nov 2, 2015

Jeff N said:
Amazingly bad video.... I love Fully Charged but this particular episode is full-on factually incorrect nonsense.

See this discussion from an earlier thread:
Tesla vs ICE pollution - Page 2

Your linked thread seems to prove that the Fully Charged video is correct.

Quote :
While technically true as others have noted refineries make most of their own power which creates considerable pollution. I can say our Plat site used less than 5% grid electric which is true. But the other side of the story is we have 21 boilers and use 70 rail cars of coal each day for the internally made power. So if you look at the energy needed for a gal of gas 4.5 KWH is on the conservative side.

kort677 · Nov 2, 2015

Tesla is very late to the game of lobbying and while they might have one of the most innovative products on the planet and some very extraordinary people designing and building their cars they are a bit behind the curve when it comes to operating in the political arena.

tomas · Nov 2, 2015

kort677 said:
Tesla is very late to the game of lobbying and while they might have one of the most innovative products on the planet and some very extraordinary people designing and building their cars they are a bit behind the curve when it comes to operating in the political arena.

But they do have the media's attention. How could they use it?

Ktowntslafan · Nov 2, 2015

Jeff N said:
Amazingly bad video.... I love Fully Charged but this particular episode is full-on factually incorrect nonsense.

See this discussion from an earlier thread:
Tesla vs ICE pollution - Page 2

I'm no expert, but I've quickly found several sources to support the information in that video:

BI: At least in the U.S., most electricity is generated using fossil fuels. Mostly natural gas and coal. What's the relative carbon footprint of a Roadster or Model S, against a gasoline car? I've heard that argument from people who worked in the oil industry.
Chris: It's funny they make that argument, because they're one of the largest users of electricity in the country, to refine gasoline. That's why the power cords go into refineries. Something like 4 to 6 kilowatt hours of electricity to refine every gallon of gasoline. They're pulling that electricity from the same source as they're critiquing on electric cars and they get much less result out of it.
Elon: Exactly. Chris has a nice way of saying it which is, you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining.

Refining oil requires more electricity than EVs | PluginCars.com

- - - Updated - - -

Jeff N said:
Amazingly bad video.... I love Fully Charged but this particular episode is full-on factually incorrect nonsense.

See this discussion from an earlier thread:
Tesla vs ICE pollution - Page 2

Never mind the "Well-to-Wheel" argument:

Pilot | Fully Charged - YouTube

- - - Updated - - -

Jeff N said:
Amazingly bad video.... I love Fully Charged but this particular episode is full-on factually incorrect nonsense.

See this discussion from an earlier thread:
Tesla vs ICE pollution - Page 2

I'm not implying motives, however:

Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly. Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate.

Doubt over climate science is a product with an industry behind it | Graham Readfearn | Environment | The Guardian

Jeff N · Nov 3, 2015

The interview is quoting Chris Paine and Elon Musk from
4 years ago after the "Revenge of the Electric Car" came out.

The interview continues:

BI: 5 kilowatt hours, that's to refine and transport one gallon of gas?

Elon: Chris, does that include transportation?

Chris: I think it's just refining. It does not include transporting it from the Middle East or Venezuela. The more efficient your refinery is, the lower that number is. The lowest number in the DOE study I read was 4, and the highest was 7, it depends on what your refinery is.

From the full context, it's clear that this "factoid" is coming from Chris and Elon is just reacting to and echoing it. Chris quotes the source of this information as being a DOE study. It's obvious that he's confusing kWh "energy" with kWh "electricity".

If you add up all of the the refinery process input energy sources in the ANL study I linked to earlier (that showed 5.2% of refinery energy was electricity) divided by the gasoline produced it will almost certainly show somewhere between 4-7 kWhs of energy. For argument's sake, let us take the high end of that range at 7 kWh of energy (largely fossil fuels). Now run the 94.8% of that energy that isn't already electricity through power plants capable of handling each type (NG, still gas, etc) and you end up with maybe 2.5-3.75 kWh of electricity at someone's home outlet. Much of those fuel sources are leftover from previous refining distillation so they wouldn't even exist if you weren't already refining gasoline. It's not like you could shut down the refinery and magically use all that "energy" as the same kWh amount of electricity to charge your BEV as Elon tries to spin things during the interview.

Chris Paine (and therefore Elon) is clearly confused in that interview.

- - - Updated - - -

Room_A113 said:
Your linked thread seems to prove that the Fully Charged video is correct.

Quote :
While technically true as others have noted refineries make most of their own power which creates considerable pollution. I can say our Plat site used less than 5% grid electric which is true. But the other side of the story is we have 21 boilers and use 70 rail cars of coal each day for the internally made power. So if you look at the energy needed for a gal of gas 4.5 KWH is on the conservative side.

Perhaps you and I are in agreement. I was simply pointing out the confusion in the Fully Charged episode (and the Chris Paine & Elon Musk interview) over energy vs electricity. Yes, a gallon of gasoline takes 4-7 kWh of energy during the refining process. No, it does not take 4-7 kWh of electricity.

The Fully Charged episode says 4.5 kWh of electricity is being used from a nearby coal power plant to refine each gallon of gasoline. That's almost certainly wrong. If that refinery is like the average UK refinery it is only using about 0.3 kWh as I show using online UN-published data at the link I provided. No the data didn't stop being available at the UN, as claimed in the video. Almost everything Llewelyn says in that "Volts for Oil" episode is wrong or grossly misleading.

Ktowntslafan · Nov 3, 2015

Jeff N said:
The interview is quoting Chris Paine and Elon Musk from
4 years ago after the "Revenge of the Electric Car" came out.

The interview continues:

From the full context, it's clear that this "factoid" is coming from Chris and Elon is just reacting to and echoing it. Chris quotes the source of this information as being a DOE study. It's obvious that he's confusing kWh "energy" with kWh "electricity".

If you add up all of the the refinery process input energy sources in the ANL study I linked to earlier (that showed 5.2% of refinery energy was electricity) divided by the gasoline produced it will almost certainly show somewhere between 4-7 kWhs of energy. For argument's sake, let us take the high end of that range at 7 kWh of energy (largely fossil fuels). Now run the 94.8% of that energy that isn't already electricity through power plants capable of handling each type (NG, still gas, etc) and you end up with maybe 2.5-3.75 kWh of electricity at someone's home outlet. Much of those fuel sources are leftover from previous refining distillation so they wouldn't even exist if you weren't already refining gasoline. It's not like you could shut down the refinery and magically use all that "energy" as the same kWh amount of electricity to charge your BEV as Elon tries to spin things during the interview.

Chris Paine (and therefore Elon) is clearly confused in that interview.

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps you and I are in agreement. I was simply pointing out the confusion in the Fully Charged episode (and the Chris Paine & Elon Musk interview) over energy vs electricity. Yes, a gallon of gasoline takes 4-7 kWh of energy during the refining process. No, it does not take 4-7 kWh of electricity.

The Fully Charged episode says 4.5 kWh of electricity is being used from a nearby coal power plant to refine each gallon of gasoline. That's almost certainly wrong. If that refinery is like the average UK refinery it is only using about 0.3 kWh as I show using online UN-published data at the link I provided. No the data didn't stop being available at the UN, as claimed in the video. Almost everything Llewelyn says in that "Volts for Oil" episode is wrong or grossly misleading.

Summary

The idea that “6 kilowatt-hours of electricity is consumed per gallon of electricity” sure seems plausible, especially given the huge amount of all kinds of resources consumed. Whether or not it’s an accurate figure for electricity consumption at the refinery is not entirely important. Instead, understanding the bigger picture is important because there is a tremendous expenditure of resources on a global scale, as well as the global environmental impact, just to keep the fossil fuel game going.

Human society is putting gobs and gobs of resources into gasoline production. That stuff represents potential which could flower in a different direction, serving other purposes. Instead of the toxic mess we’re suffering thanks to the fossil fuel industry, couldn’t we have nice clean renewable energy systems everywhere?

The idea Elon Musk tells us, that there will be no problem supplying electricity to electric cars if only we stop refining oil into gasoline, is tantalizing. But doesn’t focusing on “electricity consumed to refine crude oil” make us miss the big picture? Shouldn’t we instead focus on the enourmous cost our society is paying?

The 6 kWh electricity to refine gasoline would drive an electric car the same distance as a gasser? | The Long Tail Pipe

Jeff N · Nov 3, 2015

The Long Tail Pipe article is a good gathering of various perspectives and data points but it essentially dumps all that info on the floor and expects the reader to make up their own mind. For instance, here's a quote from that article that uses data from an EPA EnergyStar study on refineries:

The same paper also said that in 2001, refineries used 47 teraWatt-hours of electricity to refine 5.3 billion barrels of oil into various products. There’s 42 gallons of refined products from each barrel of crude oil. After some calculations, we end up with 0.2 kiloWatt-hours per gallon of gasoline.

Which is consistent with what I've been saying.

I'm certainly not promoting fossil fuels here. I'm just promoting accurate reality-based discussion.

ggr · Nov 4, 2015

Jeff N said:
The Long Tail Pipe article is a good gathering of various perspectives and data points but it essentially dumps all that info on the floor and expects the reader to make up their own mind. For instance, here's a quote from that article that uses data from an EPA EnergyStar study on refineries:

Which is consistent with what I've been saying.

I'm certainly not promoting fossil fuels here. I'm just promoting accurate reality-based discussion.

I've watched this argument go back and forth a lot. My summary of what I believe is that:
Yes, it takes about 5kWh of total energy to refine that gallon of gasoline.
No, not all of it is electricity taken from the grid. Much of it is waste energy from the refining process. But that energy still had corresponding carbon emissions, which are never counted in the MPG-based arguments.
Yes, there are other products produced by the refineries; not all of that energy should be accounted to the gasoline.

Still, I prefer to use the simple argument for most people, get more complicated if I'm talking to someone rational and knowledgeable.

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Tesla Lining Up Broadside Attack On Auto Industry Lobbying

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