First confirmed battery swap upgrade from 60 to 85?

yobigd20 · Dec 20, 2013

Well a quick search turned but nothing (admit I didnt really look too hard though), but is this the first confirmed case of an actual battery swap to upgrade to an 85 from a 60? Cost: ~$18k. It seems all those 60 owners regretting not getting an 85 can now upgrade!!!

Life With Tesla Model S: Battery Upgrade From 60 kWh To 85 kWh

(if this has been reported already here, (wouldn't be surprised if I'm late to the game), then mods please merge and sorry! lol)

PhilBa · Dec 20, 2013

Typical Tesla, keep asking until you get an answer you like. I really wish they would fix their communication problem.

As for the battery, that seems a bit steep but I'm glad that it's possible.

Puyallup Bill · Dec 20, 2013

PhilBa said:
Typical Tesla, keep asking until you get an answer you like. I really wish they would fix their communication problem.

As for the battery, that seems a bit steep but I'm glad that it's possible.

Agree on both counts.

That communications problem is a real irritant to me.

Gizmotoy · Dec 20, 2013

PhilBa said:
As for the battery, that seems a bit steep but I'm glad that it's possible.

Ya, I hope he'll be happy with it. I'm not sure it will be as good for his resale value as he thinks it is. The VIN will indicate it's a 60kwh version, so he'll have to disclose that the battery was replaced. I don't know that I'd want to be the owner of the first ever 60kwh model with an 85kwh battery. Who knows what kind of weird software issues could lurk ahead. Especially if it's a rare upgrade, which at $18k, it will be.

The motor and inverter systems in the two models are physically identical, I was told, but 60-kWh cars are software-limited to 302 horsepower, against 362 hp for 85-kWh cars. Why? The smaller battery isn't safely able to deliver the necessary current to provide 362 hp. A software tweak would boost my motor's output to 362 hp

I liked this part where he states it's software limited and then goes on to describe why it's hardware limited. :wink:

eepic · Dec 20, 2013

PhilBa said:
Typical Tesla, keep asking until you get an answer you like. I really wish they would fix their communication problem.

As for the battery, that seems a bit steep but I'm glad that it's possible.

I wonder if it's a special case because their road trip article was cited by a lot of other media sites. It would be great if it was an option for all owners, but it raises a few questions.

What happens if at some point battery costs start dropping faster than the depreciation of a current battery? Let's say a current 85 kWH depreciates to $35,000, but a brand new one at that point is $30,000. Would they still price the trade-in value of your battery at $35,000, or based on a $30,000 as a starting point less depreciation?

scaesare · Dec 20, 2013

I find it interesting that folks classify this as a communication problem automatically and automatically assume that it was a failure.

I'm of the opinion that it's an option that had not been previously offered (and therefore the service center gave the "correct" answer"), and Tesla is considering hoe to provide more options for folks and are working to give customers what they want. For all we know, Tesla never planned on batter swapping for different sizes until this guy asked, and figured "why not?".

Glass half empty viewpoint versus half glass full, I suppose. I personally applaud Tesla for designing a flexible and forward-thinking vehicle, and then being willing to find additional ways to offer value to folks.

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Gizmotoy said:
I liked this part where he states it's software limited and then goes on to describe why it's hardware limited. :wink:

That makes perfect sense, actually. The hardware is capable of less current source, so the software makes sure not to overdraw it. Happens all the time in firmware driven computer-controlled hardware. USB devices have firmware that can query the hardware for their current capability and then adjust their draw accordingly.

Gizmotoy · Dec 20, 2013

scaesare said:
That makes perfect sense, actually. The hardware is capable of less current source, so the software makes sure not to overdraw it. Happens all the time in firmware driven computer-controlled hardware. USB devices have firmware that can query the hardware for their current capability and then adjust their draw accordingly.

Which is another good example of something being hardware-limited. Even if you build the protection logic into the software instead of the hardware, it's still a hardware limitation.

stopcrazypp · Dec 20, 2013

scaesare said:
I'm of the opinion that it's an option that had not been previously offered (and therefore the service center gave the "correct" answer"), and Tesla is considering hoe to provide more options for folks and are working to give customers what they want. For all we know, Tesla never planned on batter swapping for different sizes until this guy asked, and figured "why not?".

Tesla is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I remember one of the early things Tesla did was lay out all their plans for the public to see (early spec sheet for Model S). When planned features didn't pan out, everyone grabbed their pitchforks and George B had to write in this forum personally to respond to concerns. After that, Tesla seems to have taken a strategy of denying anything is in the plans until it's actually ready. I think it's a better strategy than setting up people for disappointment if things don't work out.

Andrew · Dec 20, 2013

This is nice to see.

I've been thinking about ways to make a Model X affordable for us (the Model S 85 was a stretch as it was, but now we're addicted...). We only need one car with the longer range, but we'd like it to be the Model X, so we can use it for road trips to the mountains instead of the S. Wonder if if they'll let us buy an X with a 60kW battery and then swap the battery packs between our two cars?

Johan · Dec 20, 2013

Andrew said:
This is nice to see.

I've been thinking about ways to make a Model X affordable for us (the Model S 85 was a stretch as it was, but now we're addicted...). We only need one car with the longer range, but we'd like it to be the Model X, so we can use it for road trips to the mountains instead of the S. Wonder if if they'll let us buy an X with a 60kW battery and then swap the battery packs between our two cars?

Great idea. Would be a waste for me to put a 60kWh in a Performance tough...

Trnsl8r · Dec 20, 2013

Andrew said:
This is nice to see.

I've been thinking about ways to make a Model X affordable for us (the Model S 85 was a stretch as it was, but now we're addicted...). We only need one car with the longer range, but we'd like it to be the Model X, so we can use it for road trips to the mountains instead of the S. Wonder if if they'll let us buy an X with a 60kW battery and then swap the battery packs between our two cars?

Kind of doubt that the battery backs between Model S and X are identical. Similar yes, but probably not identical.

Andrew · Dec 20, 2013

Trnsl8r said:
Kind of doubt that the battery backs between Model S and X are identical. Similar yes, but probably not identical.

If Tesla is serious about setting up battery swap stations, I'd expect that the packs would actually be identical...otherwise that would mean they'd have twice as many types of packs to manage and store, etc. (It's already going to be enough of a logistical headache!)

scaesare · Dec 20, 2013

stopcrazypp said:
Tesla is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I remember one of the early things Tesla did was lay out all their plans for the public to see (early spec sheet for Model S). When planned features didn't pan out, everyone grabbed their pitchforks and George B had to write in this forum personally to respond to concerns. After that, Tesla seems to have taken a strategy of denying anything is in the plans until it's actually ready. I think it's a better strategy than setting up people for disappointment if things don't work out.

I tend to agree that they seemed to be damned of they do, damned if they don't in many people's minds.

I certainly understand folks being upset if commitments are not honored (visors anyone?). But I think less ire should be focused at them if plans change or are delayed (superchargers).

But in this case, it appears that something new is being rolled out as an option, an attempt was made to acoomodate this person even though it hasn't officially been announced formally, and people still ding them.

I don't get it. Do folks want them to stop trying? Would people rather they don't share plans with us, so we don't have a chance to influence it with constructive feedback (like supercharger locations)? Not me...

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Gizmotoy said:
Which is another good example of something being hardware-limited. Even if you build the protection logic into the software instead of the hardware, it's still a hardware limitation.

Correct. Which is why it didn't strike me as out of place in that article.

Mhotep · Dec 20, 2013

Wow. That's a lot.

scaesare · Dec 20, 2013

Trnsl8r said:
Kind of doubt that the battery backs between Model S and X are identical. Similar yes, but probably not identical.

I expect they will be very similar (if not identical). It's the same basic platform, it re-uses previous engineering, is one less item to build stock, and maintain, and encourages additional economies of scale.

Tempus · Dec 20, 2013

personally, i think it's great that this has been done. It's always been in the back of my head that as a long term plan, i could swap my 60 battery for an 85 (or a 1xx when more is available) and have a "refreshed" car a number of years down the line. Hopefully it'll be somewhat cheaper as well as battery prices come down over time.

Johan · Dec 21, 2013

The business case for Tesla is hughe. Refurbished batteries for use in cars or other applications (home solar etc.) will become a big and profitable market. Of course Tesla should take ownership early.

yobigd20 · Dec 21, 2013

Trnsl8r said:
Kind of doubt that the battery backs between Model S and X are identical. Similar yes, but probably not identical.

I actually expect the battery packs and form factors to be 100% identical. I believe this is one of Tesla's goals to share as much as possible between the two cars. I know that they've publicly stated that >60% of the parts between teh Model S and Model X are the same. They are even going to be built on the same production line. It's mostly just the shell and AWD and cosmetric changes that are different. Other than that, the Model S and Model X are going to be identical.

Now what you proposed about battery swapping between vehicles is very interesting. You could buy one with a 60kW battery and another with a 120kW battery (assuming those come out), and then drive both cars to a swapping station, both cars sit on two platforms next to each other, and their packs are swapped between them. This opens up a bunch of potential new use cases for it. You could save $$ while being able to change the roles between the vehicles aka one being the 'local car' and the other being the 'vacation car', etc. This could be 'free' vs the charging for swapping/upgrading to "Tesla-owned batteries" at these stations. With the supercharger network being built up, if you are a 2+ car Tesla family, I could see that being used more frequently than swapping for a Tesla-owned pack.

Alfafoxtrot1 · Dec 21, 2013

On the communication thing: 1) On Thursday I was speaking with the manager of the Chicago SC about the opening of the nearby Highland Park service and sales facility. He only knew that it was in the works. He was surprised to learn that TM had sent out announcements of the grand opening for the following day. 2) At the grand opening I spoke with a regional manager about the battery upgrade story. This guy has something like 6 states in his territory. He didn't believe it was possible until he saw the story himself.

lolachampcar · Dec 21, 2013

The cost of the battery is absolutely amazing. My wife's car can be bought for slightly more than the cost of the battery and her battery is 3months/3700 miles old!

First confirmed battery swap upgrade from 60 to 85?

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