Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[JRP3]

You did. Many times repeatedly, you just don't know what "Degradation" means so you don't know what you said each time you misused that word. Degradation is normal.

I've provided a number of examples proving that degradation does not have the narrow definition you insist on. Abnormal or accelerated degradation is a real condition.
In this study the word "Degradation" is used 57 times relating to the breakdown of the electrolyte, not capacity.

http://www.bcc.bas.bg/BCC_Volumes/Volume_49_Special_G_2017/BCC-49-G-Rosenberg-242-253.pdf

"Understanding the degradation processes of the electrolyte of lithium ion batteries by chromatographic analysis"

"The electrolyte of lithium ion batteries (LIBs) degrades both under normal operation – e.g. in the formation of the solid electrolyte interphase (SEI) – and in particular under conditions of extreme temperature, voltage or current flow."

"Electrochemical, thermal and hydrolysis reactions lead to the partial decomposition of the electrolyte and the formation of even more volatile reaction products. When these are vented upon overheating of the LIB, there is the risk of fire or explosion of the entire battery pack. As the degradation of the LIB electrolyte is a continuously proceeding process, it can be followed by monitoring the formation of volatile degradation products, as well as the composition of the electrolyte itself [9]."

 

[omarsultan]

No, that voltage delta of 20mv only translates to about 1 kWh - 1.5 kWh difference. Your battery had other problems/failures, aside from any capacity losses due to voltage capping.
Did they say specifically what was wrong with your old battery?

Thanks. You know Tesla, they were mum on the topic beyond the "max charge reduced" error on the screen. They said initial remote diagnosis indicated the HV pack and once its in the shop they would confirm that and "make sure there is no outside influence" (which I thought was a strange comment). Then they got back and said they were swapping the packs under warranty.

The only info we have is what I was able to gather via TM-Spy

• Great diminished pack capacity (down to 55 kWh at the end)
• Very unbalanced
• The difference in kWh and A at similar SoC

 

[JRP3]

"Capped volts" is the problem. the explanation is "Tesla surreptitiously capped voltage"

ther have been accusations of Tesla being guilty ofd some extremely big crimes, ask @bhzmark what their accusation hypotheses are they've offered several criminal reasons for the caps. The problem is the cap, that's it. There could be more problems if there are things like li plating and criminal conspiracy to conceal things like that to avoid repairs, but the core problem, the reason for this thread, is "Sudden Loss Of Range" and that is directly attributed to volt caps in software.

The thread's title is the problem. Volt capping is the explanation. I think what you're asking for is the legal basis to justify it all - and there is none. There is not even an official story yet, just accusations and crimes we hope have not been perpetrated, vague non-excuses like "you're in a test group" and so on.

My curiosity goes deeper. The problem is not really "capped volts", which is, as you well know, an artificial condition applied by Tesla because of some other "problem". I'm not looking to legally justify anything, I'm actually looking for the root cause of the problem which caused Tesla to cap voltage. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand, I'm looking for the root of the problem, regardless of legal consequences to Tesla or owners.

 

[Chaserr]

I've provided a number of examples proving that degradation does not have the narrow definition you insist on. Abnormal or accelerated degradation is a real condition.
In this study the word "Degradation" is used 57 times relating to the breakdown of the electrolyte, not capacity.

http://www.bcc.bas.bg/BCC_Volumes/Volume_49_Special_G_2017/BCC-49-G-Rosenberg-242-253.pdf

"Understanding the degradation processes of the electrolyte of lithium ion batteries by chromatographic analysis"

"The electrolyte of lithium ion batteries (LIBs) degrades both under normal operation – e.g. in the formation of the solid electrolyte interphase (SEI) – and in particular under conditions of extreme temperature, voltage or current flow."

"Electrochemical, thermal and hydrolysis reactions lead to the partial decomposition of the electrolyte and the formation of even more volatile reaction products. When these are vented upon overheating of the LIB, there is the risk of fire or explosion of the entire battery pack. As the degradation of the LIB electrolyte is a continuously proceeding process, it can be followed by monitoring the formation of volatile degradation products, as well as the composition of the electrolyte itself [9]."

For this example you chose, extreme temperatures are the reason Nissans degrade more quickly than Teslas. Nissan doesn't have a liquid coolant pump temperature regulation system, so they heat up and degrade3 very quickly. You can test this yourself with a volt meter - a brand new Nissan Leaf with 0 miles will charge to the exact same voltage as an identical year old Nissan Leaf with 30,000 miles on the odometer, but capacity will be significantly reduced - more than Teslas experience in 5 years and 5 times more miles - because the battery operates are much more wild swings of temperature. This is degradation.



And degradation is still not the topic, because those temperatures do not change the voltage limits of the battery. Nissan has never capped a battery, and theirs are the most degraded in the entire automotive industry.

Thank you for making an effort to learn.

I'm actually looking for the root cause of the problem which caused Tesla to cap voltage. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand, I'm looking for the root of the problem, regardless of legal consequences to Tesla or owners.

Tesla capped volts, we know that. They did so in response to fires, we know that too - they weren't shy announcing it before they realized how crippling the caps would be. They can't give you the information you seek beyond that without risking a lot of criminal problems they are avoiding right now. The NHTSA will give you your answers, I don't recommend throwing accusations yourself. I prefer to believe Tesla is hiding a rather benign problem because they need to get the replacement 88kwh pack we've only seen one of tested and mass produced as a recall replacement. Others accuse them of hiding a li plating problem that could kill us while we await official confirmation. Tesla won't confirm it until they are prepared to pay the fines and issue the recalls. You will learn of the root cause from Tesla the day they announce a recall, or perhaps slightly after the NHTSA announced an involuntary recall if Tesla tries to hide it a little longer.

 

[JRP3]

Then your persistent citing of the word "degradation" is off-topic here.

It's 100% on topic.

 

[Chaserr]

It's a topic sure, but not THIS topic. You know better by now. You've quoted sources proving you know degradation is off topic normal battery function that doesn't cause volt capping.

 

[Droschke]

The only info we have is what I was able to gather via TM-Spy

• Great diminished pack capacity (down to 55 kWh at the end)
• Very unbalanced
• The difference in kWh and A at similar SoC

Are these bulleted info for the battery you got this week?

 

[qwk]

Why can't you explain it then? "Bad module" is not an explanation.

I’m not going to do your homework for you.

I will say that it is a direct result of DC charging. A Tesla pack will last a very long time if AC charged only. A few DC charges probably won’t take much life out of it either(once a year). Constant DC charging is as good for your pack, as is chain smoking for your lungs.

Model 3 packs are going to be dropping like flies soon enough. Good thing Tesla is going for the disposable phone/car business model. This million mile pack Musks tweets about, is 100% fantasy, just like FSD.

Don’t believe me, just wait....

 

[Chaserr]

I don't know more than the fact that tesla limited voltage in response to a series of fires in parked cars and according to Tesla "a single bad module" was how they described the cause of those fires. So while I can't certify the authenticity of what @qwk says I can agree that Tesla has said the same thing themselves.

Tesla told us a lot more than people realize a year ago when those cars were catching fire all the time. I don't think they ever intended to have such a wide scaled conspiracy, I want the reason to be their realization the scope of teh fix must have been so expensive they couldn't fix everyone, and it was the act of just one maliciously evil manager way up top somewhere that somehow convinced enough people to keep it secret and locked down so no recall notices were sent out until it was an old enough issue that coming clean was just as dangerous to the company as breaking the law continually.

 

[Droschke]

It's 100% on topic.

No. It's not on topic. The topic at hand starts with the word "Sudden". No battery degradation is sudden that I know of.

 

[omarsultan]

Are these bulleted info for the battery you got this week?

If I understand your question, this bullets are for the old pack, the new one is pretty healthy in terms of capacity and balance.

 

[bhzmark]

You can reverse plating with a software update? Please stop grasping at straws.

You can reverse some plating, in part, by causing certain battery environmental factors.

The BMS controls, in part, the battery environment.

 

[Droschke]

If I understand your question, this bullets are for the old pack, the new one is pretty healthy in terms of capacity and balance.

Thanks. You understood it perfectly.

 

[Chaserr]

No battery degradation is sudden that I know of.

That spins back to his earlier aloha style re-purposing of the word to mean roughly "all bad things." We've moved on. He wants to know what Tesla's justifications for the thefts are now. I think at some level we all probably do, but none of us have been told so now he's up to date with everything except that vocab glitch that might resurface occasionally.

 

[Chaserr]

You can reverse some plating, in part, by causing certain battery environmental factors.

The BMS controls, in part, the battery environment.

Perhaps in a lab, but in order to do it on the street you have to break the law and intentionally put lives in jeopardy. Tesla isn't murderous, I don't want to believe they would keep something as hazardous as li plated batteries on the road in secret when there are so many laws reminding them that's not allowed. Li plating is probably the most dangerous accusation I've seen anyone accuse Tesla of covering up, it just doesn't seem likely they would be so cavalier with lives or safety laws when they make some of the safest cars ever designed. That's a company pillar I just can't imagine they would throw away for no reason.

 

[omarsultan]

If your tires are bald the tread has degraded.

Yes, and if this happened over the expected life of the tire, you would shrug and call Tire Rack. If someone snuck into your garage overnight and shaved your tires down to slicks, you might be a little bit annoyed.

 

[JRP3]

I’m not going to do your homework for you.

If you had a definitive answer you could end the discussion immediately. Not sure why you wouldn't provide it if you had it.

I will say that it is a direct result of DC charging. A Tesla pack will last a very long time if AC charged only. A few DC charges probably won’t take much life out of it either(once a year). Constant DC charging is as good for your pack, as is chain smoking for your lungs.

I agree that is a likely trigger. High current charging can cause increased undesirable side reactions and, I'm sorry to say, cause accelerated "bad things". Especially in packs which may have compromised chemistry. Back when Tesla introduced Supercharging I was surprised since it's no secret that higher C rate charging accelerates wear. I figured they had found a solution to mitigate the problem.

Model 3 packs are going to be dropping like flies soon enough. Good thing Tesla is going for the disposable phone/car business model. This million mile pack Musks tweets about, is 100% fantasy, just like FSD.

Don’t believe me, just wait....

Maybe, maybe not. As I've mentioned Tesla gave up some capacity gain in the Model 3 cells for a reason, that reason may be faster charge rates and longer cycle life. But it is possible the 3 will have similar issues.
I'm expecting the million mile pack to be NMC based chemistry which has an inherently higher cycle life, it's what they use in their stationary products. Million miles from a 400 mile pack is 2,500 cycles, NMC can easily do that. I do have a Cybertruck reservation so I am watching how this all plays out.

 

[JRP3]

The other mystery is the Tesloop X90's which have done nothing but supercharging in warm environments and have gone 200-300K+ miles on original packs.

 

[Chaserr]

Especially in packs which may have compromised chemistry.

Did someone post anything proving this? Are certain cells chemically compromised? That's a hardware flaw we can use to our advantage if it's proven.

Cybertruck will have the same flaw. Tesla recently modified the warranty terms stating they will artificially cap new vehicles as badly as 30% - they wouldn't need to do that if new vehicles didn't have the same flaw as older ones - they only difference being they can't claim capping was communicated to us pre-contract. 30% is a lot - it means a new "Long Range" Model S only has 261 miles of EPA range after that big * asterisk

 

[jkennebeck]

Yes, and if this happened over the expected life of the tire, you would shrug and call Tire Rack. If someone snuck into your garage overnight and shaved your tires down to slicks, you might be a little bit annoyed.

Yep, you can come up with a whole lot of analogies for this situation. We all know that our (insert Li-Ion battery powered device here) will, over time, perform less than it did when it was brand new. But we didn't agree to allow the seller (and warrantor) to make sudden and drastic changes to our devices with no warning, explanation or information on how they would remedy what they did with their software.

equally applicable to TSLA or AAPL. you choose