-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
I know you didn't ask me, but if my battery had full capacity - no voltage limitation - and could charge to a reasonable amount, but could not get past 30mph, then no. I would expect that there was something wrong with the drive units. Maybe wiring or a fuse, but I wouldn't think degraded battery. Especially if it happened suddenly.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
13 years here and still no? Go take a test drive, man! You'll be an owner that same hour. Buy new though - the honeymoon period is about 6 years before they start capping things you paid for, and don't buy used they're removing stuff from those cars whenever they feel like it.
I've been looking at trading up to an SR Raven - ask about it. Inventory is scarce but they are around and CHEAP - and just as fast as my older P85 with a lot more range!
Lack of ownership explains the vocab failure. Degradation isn't "anything bad and the word for battery failure" it's totally normal and every Tesla has it. It's not a problem or a worry as long as it isn't exacerbated by other failures like for example no cooling (this causes rapid degradation on Nissans). You'll see the most degradation in your first year as the battery "settles" from new, then stabilizes for years with only minor degradation after that. An uncapped battery will last decades with under 10% degradation and at least in my case i was looking at more like 50 years before natural degradation catches up to the artificial capping limits you've conflated with natural processes. Nothing "bad" or "wrong" about degradation, it WILL happen to your car when you get one and it's not scary.
I've been looking at trading up to an SR Raven - ask about it. Inventory is scarce but they are around and CHEAP - and just as fast as my older P85 with a lot more range!
Lack of ownership explains the vocab failure. Degradation isn't "anything bad and the word for battery failure" it's totally normal and every Tesla has it. It's not a problem or a worry as long as it isn't exacerbated by other failures like for example no cooling (this causes rapid degradation on Nissans). You'll see the most degradation in your first year as the battery "settles" from new, then stabilizes for years with only minor degradation after that. An uncapped battery will last decades with under 10% degradation and at least in my case i was looking at more like 50 years before natural degradation catches up to the artificial capping limits you've conflated with natural processes. Nothing "bad" or "wrong" about degradation, it WILL happen to your car when you get one and it's not scary.
Last edited by a moderator:
Since you have studied batteries forever, please explain how a capped car flashed version 8 software again, isn’t capped anymore. When something degrades, by definition it cannot go back to its previous state.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
From your link:
The bolded part shows another aspect of degradation separate from capacity. Increased internal resistance could caused reduced power output, as in my previous example, and reduced charge rates.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I've been over this. Obviously the capping is artificial. Equally obvious is the artificial capping is an attempt to counter some undesirable change in the cells, i.e. some form of degradation. Yes they could uncap the pack and range would return but the internal problems would remain. According to Tesla this would hasten capacity loss and potentially lead to fires. Neither of those is a good outcome, I assume we agree upon that?
Incorrect interpretation keep reading. Batterygate doesn't cause resistance failures or degradation, it causes volt caps which you won't find. Why are you looking for reasons to disagree with everyone around you, the world, and science itself? You've learned and are better for it unless you choose not to be. As you are now absorbing, degradation is physical damage that can't be reversed... unlike batterygate, which is successfully reversible.
Degradation is normal and expected, it has never been concealed or covered up. Batterygate's deceptions are possibly covering up something else. We don't know what or if there is another reason we just know it isn't degradation, and if anyone does know of the true purpose they need to report it to the authorities to avoid being legally complicit should that problem be dangerous to result in harm to anyone.
If we accept that you use the word "degradation" to mean "fault, defect, or failure" your prior misuses make sense. Your usage applies perfectly because "fault, defect, failure" is pretty much "anything bad" as you believe is another definition of degradation, while degradation is not every form of bad in reality it's just a normal process like aging in people.
Degradation is normal and expected, it has never been concealed or covered up. Batterygate's deceptions are possibly covering up something else. We don't know what or if there is another reason we just know it isn't degradation, and if anyone does know of the true purpose they need to report it to the authorities to avoid being legally complicit should that problem be dangerous to result in harm to anyone.
If we accept that you use the word "degradation" to mean "fault, defect, or failure" your prior misuses make sense. Your usage applies perfectly because "fault, defect, failure" is pretty much "anything bad" as you believe is another definition of degradation, while degradation is not every form of bad in reality it's just a normal process like aging in people.
Last edited:
@JRP3
"the artificial capping is an attempt to counter some undesirable change in the cells, i.e. some form of degradation."
That is false.
Voltage capping does not cure degradation. Voltage capping is to lessen the chance of battery fires (admitted by Tesla and the evidence was provided to you earlier, which you did not accept). Battery fires are due to battery pack defects. Degraded batteries do not cause fires by themselves. Defective packs do.
"the artificial capping is an attempt to counter some undesirable change in the cells, i.e. some form of degradation."
That is false.
Voltage capping does not cure degradation. Voltage capping is to lessen the chance of battery fires (admitted by Tesla and the evidence was provided to you earlier, which you did not accept). Battery fires are due to battery pack defects. Degraded batteries do not cause fires by themselves. Defective packs do.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I never said it did. I said, repeatedly, that it may mitigate the negative effects of whatever is going on inside the cells. Whatever is going on inside the cells is not good, I call that "degradation", since something that is not working as intended is "degraded" from original. When battery resistance degrades, as referenced by that paper, it is a bad thing, but not necessarily related to battery capacity.
I've been trying to figure out what might be happening inside the cells, my current theory is as follows. Obviously feel free to ignore everything I write since it's just speculation.
Since the internal "defect" is somewhat mitigated by lower operating voltage I suspect it could be related to the electrolyte and electrolyte additives. Electrolyte is subject to degradation from excessive voltage. Similar to the way water breaks down above 1.2 V. If they had a bad batch of electrolyte, or a bad additive, it's possible they are seeing faster electrolyte breakdown than normal. This could mean undesirable side reactions which lead to clogging of the SEI layer and/or creation of volatile compounds. This may not affect capacity in the short term but might create dangerous conditions when charged to higher voltages and/or when charging or regening at higher rates.
Please reread my post(a few times if need be). This has nothing to do with degradation.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
That is what the word means. Compounds degrade, materials degrade, it's all degradation.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
What does it have to do with then? Why do you think Telsa is capping the packs? You think they are doing it because the cells are just as good as new?
Lithium plating is not a manufacturing or design defect. It is a common form of battery degradation.
I now see that the people asserting that that their batteries should be fixed under warranty on the thread are afraid to admit that Condition Z could be lithium plating because lithium plating is well known to be common degradation and that would undermine their liability claims.
They have no response and are afraid to discuss condition Z or lithium plating because it undermines their monetary warranty claims.
Asserting that voltage capping is not a way to mitigate lithium plating Condition Z degradation is not going to work, no matter how many times people assert it.
False. some lithium plating is reversible. and part of the reversing involves avoiding highest voltages.
Still the people asserting that that their batteries should be fixed under warranty are unable to answer the outstanding questions:
1) If not lithium plating (i.e., a type of battery wear from usage) what do you think Condition Z is?
2) Does any affected battery have > 30% range loss?
You are trying to change the meaning of degradation. When you throw a rod in a motor, the block isn’t degraded, it’s broken.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
If they reverse it and your pack starts losing actual capacity at a faster rate or catches fire is that "successfully reversed"? I would say no.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Nothing is wrong with the chemistry, it’s a bad module. No need to go any further.
A hole in the block has nothing to do with compression. The oil is on the ground and the motor is seized.
Similar threads
