If it was wear from usage, one wouldn’t gain an extra 6-10kwh from a software change. Wear is not reversible.
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
What made the module go bad but didn't affect pack capacity? Most likely chemistry.
As for the definition of degradation:
Polymer Electrolyte Fuel Cell Degradation
Chapter 2 - Membrane Durability: Physical and Chemical Degradation
Chapter 3 - Electrochemical Degradation: Electrocatalyst and Support Durability
Chapter 4 - Gas Diffusion Media and their Degradation
Lithium ion battery electrolyte degradation of field-tested electric vehicle battery cells – A comprehensive analytical study
"the study of degradation mechanisms on cell level contributes to the understanding of aging phenomena and will enable improvements for future generations of LIBs."
Electrolyte degradation in anode supported microtubular yttria stabilized zirconia-based solid oxide steam electrolysis cells at high voltages of operation
"Degradation of solid oxide electrolysis cells (SOECs) is probably the biggest concern in the field of high temperature steam electrolysis (HTSE)"
No more "degradation means any bad" and most importantly you can drop it entirely. Maybe Tesla will switch gears and try to claim degradation caused fires, (we can only hope, we want a swift win so we can be made whole fast!) but they never have and probably never will since it would be degradation of them to make such a degradationly degradation claim and they aren't total degrads.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'm saying that if you have an engine with reduced compression, without a hole in it, the compression has degraded. If your tires are bald the tread has degraded.
You can reverse plating with a software update? Please stop grasping at straws.
Put some skin in the game, and take a capped pack apart. Knowledge isn’t free.
Where in any of these links you have posted it says an imposed/artificial voltage capping is a valid response to battery normal/gradual degradation?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
At this point you're actively trying not to understand my points.
1) I don't know and neither does anyone else here. I don't have a problem with "Condition Z" being lithium plating. It is still caused by an incorrectly programmed BMS (stretching the limits too far to make the car more desirable) and is not due to customer mistreatment of the battery.
2) As for >30% degradation, yes, there are plenty of them after the latest update containing "Improved HV battery diagnostics". Many 85kWh cars that I know of here in Scandinavia have recently received the "Battery charge level reduced" -message and subsequently warranty replacement. So it is clearly covered by warranty as well as more widespread than just a few cars. Actually while writing this post I heard of yet another "charge level reduced" total failure that happened to someone I know, in this case a 2014 car with less than 100k km (~60k miles).
There are a lot of unhappy owners of older cars that are suffering from range drop and/or charge speed reduction. It seems obvious that it is just a matter of time until many of us that now have a capped battery will have a more or less completely failed battery. Hopefully (for us) before the warranty runs out.. Tesla is probably hoping for the opposite.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
So you have no idea what's happening either, even though you have "skin" in the game.
I'm and you are not being helpful about it. Where in any of these links you have posted it says an imposed/artificial voltage capping is a valid response to battery normal/gradual degradation?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I never said what is happening is normal. Never. What those links showed clearly is that the definition of the word "degradation" has a broader meaning in scientific literature than some of you are willing to acknowledge.
Then your persistent citing of the word "degradation" is off-topic here.
73. LITHIUM PLATING IS IMMENSELY HAZARDOUS - Qnovo
That claim is dangerously unaware of li-plating's lethal issues. Claiming an update somehow makes hazardous dangers OK to conceal is a dangerous mistake to make. Li-plating can kill. If there is manufacturer-known danger we have to be informed. We have never been informed, so either there is no li-plating or it's criminally unreported. That's a hypothesis that can only be brought up \by people willing to accuse Tesla of heinous crimes.
This discussion always circles back to Tesla being guilty of crimes that have the potential to become murder charges. If they are aware of a problem that can kill as has been suggested here, and they are concealing that danger in order to keep as many cars on the road as possible, they are knowingly and willfully guilty.
The only possible legal recourse is a recall. Recall inform everyone and make the government's involvement and assistance in mitigating these problems mandatory.
I intend to have my car hacked so I can roll it back and fool the battery into allowing a full charge again. I can then and sell it for full value as a nice, safe, unaffected vehicle. Then I will buy myself a new Raven or Taycan, still on the fence which.
I can legally do this because there are no legal repercussions to downgrading Tesla software. It's my car, and Tesla insists the older firmware is safe and more capable than newer software. I would be a fool to sell my car with gimped firmware, so this is a reasonable course of action.
It would be illegal for me to reverse a safety recall, just as it is illegal for Tesla to lie to me and cover up lithium plating problems in my battery. Since there is no recall, it remains legal and safe for me to dispose of my car for maximum value. I will even include a link to this thread for the new owner with advice that my car is probably one of the affected.
You did. Many times repeatedly, you just don't know what "Degradation" means so you don't know what you said each time you misused that word. Degradation is normal. It is not "anything bad" and is not related to this topic of discussion. There is no Tesla without degradation, it's a completely normal and expected function of the technology every Tesla uses. It's so normal degradation begins before a car is even purchased. You've used the word Degradation (normal lithium battery lifecycle) to describe what is happening repeatedly. You may still not realize you were and remain incorrect, but the reason you have to reject what you said is because you said it without realizing what you were saying.
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Yeah, comparatively, I have my entire body in the game. I know exactly what the problem is. You would too, if you took my advice.
It’s funny how the “experts” here have never owned a Tesla, or a capped pack.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Why can't you explain it then? "Bad module" is not an explanation.
"Capped volts" is the problem. the explanation is "Tesla surreptitiously capped voltage"
ther have been accusations of Tesla being guilty ofd some extremely big crimes, ask @bhzmark what their accusation hypotheses are they've offered several criminal reasons for the caps. The problem is the cap, that's it. There could be more problems if there are things like li plating and criminal conspiracy to conceal things like that to avoid repairs, but the core problem, the reason for this thread, is "Sudden Loss Of Range" and that is directly attributed to volt caps in software.
The thread's title is the problem. Volt capping is the explanation. I think what you're asking for is the legal basis to justify it all - and there is none. There is not even an official story yet, just accusations and crimes we hope have not been perpetrated, vague non-excuses like "you're in a test group" and so on.
ther have been accusations of Tesla being guilty ofd some extremely big crimes, ask @bhzmark what their accusation hypotheses are they've offered several criminal reasons for the caps. The problem is the cap, that's it. There could be more problems if there are things like li plating and criminal conspiracy to conceal things like that to avoid repairs, but the core problem, the reason for this thread, is "Sudden Loss Of Range" and that is directly attributed to volt caps in software.
The thread's title is the problem. Volt capping is the explanation. I think what you're asking for is the legal basis to justify it all - and there is none. There is not even an official story yet, just accusations and crimes we hope have not been perpetrated, vague non-excuses like "you're in a test group" and so on.
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