Smart summon accident and liability

[evfeh]

Can you post the video? That way we can see what happened.

 

[Hayseed_MS]

Can you post the video? That way we can see what happened.

The tree moved into the car's path and there is no video evidence.

 

[zoomer0056]

Can you post the video? That way we can see what happened.

Unfortunately, no dashcam footage even though the car knew it was in an accident since the flashers came on afterwards.

There won't be any video unless dashcam is enabled. Also, just FYI, if the dashcam is enabled it is continuously recording. By touching the icon, a 10min clip will be saved. It is 10min before it was touched and a couple minutes after. If there is a red dot on the dashcam icon, then it is enabled.

 

[Euphony010]

$2500 in damage to repair the door and repaint. Submitted to insurance as if I was driving it since the other car was damaged. My premium nearly doubled after claiming it.

I was direct line of sight to to the car while moving (perfect conditions, no traffic or otherwise). The car had not been parked there when I originally parked. Very frustrating, only because as FSD has improved, I’d perceived some improvements in Smart Summon which likely gave me more confidence then I should have.

 

[uscbucsfan]

There hasn't been any developments or improvements to smart summons in many years. This is from Elon himself and he called it a "fun trick". Why anyone would allow their car to drive with it outside of an empty parking lot is crazy.

When the FSD stack is implemented into parking lots, I'll try again, but accidents are not uncommon for those trying to use it at this stage.

 

[terraform]

$2500 in damage to repair the door and repaint. Submitted to insurance as if I was driving it since the other car was damaged. My premium nearly doubled after claiming it.

I was direct line of sight to to the car while moving (perfect conditions, no traffic or otherwise). The car had not been parked there when I originally parked. Very frustrating, only because as FSD has improved, I’d perceived some improvements in Smart Summon which likely gave me more confidence then I should have. View attachment 963753View attachment 963751View attachment 963752View attachment 963753

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Ugh, that's unfortunate. I also did not realize how dumb "smart" summon was until it was too late. I love Tesla, but the name of the feature is super misleading because it is NOT smart and it does NOT summon. Some on this forum will say: you should have read the fine print -- I'm sorry but you have to dig much deeper to realize that this feature truly sucks -- plus there are just as many YouTube videos of people successfully using it.

I don't get why your insurance doubled. Technically you were not driving. Even a novice driver could have pulled a car straight out of a parking space. Have you thought about contesting that it was more than 50% your fault?

 

[E90alex]

Ugh, that's unfortunate. I also did not realize how dumb "smart" summon was until it was too late. I love Tesla, but the name of the feature is super misleading because it is NOT smart and it does NOT summon. Some on this forum will say: you should have read the fine print -- I'm sorry but you have to dig much deeper to realize that this feature truly sucks -- plus there are just as many YouTube videos of people successfully using it.

I don't get why your insurance doubled. Technically you were not driving. Even a novice driver could have pulled a car straight out of a parking space. Have you thought about contesting that it was more than 50% your fault?

You as the person controlling the car are 100% responsible for what the car does.

 

[terraform]

You as the person controlling the car are 100% responsible for what the car does.

I’d argue that it’s not 100%. Sure, I’m controlling the app — but the algorithm is doing the driving. After pressing summon, the expected behavior is for the algorithm to not crash into things.

The rule is to be within 200 feet and in the line of sight. But being in the line of sight does not give you a clear view of every obstacle or the car’s actual intent. Controlling summon is way different from being in the driver seat — and that’s why it is not 100% IMHO.

 

[KArnold]

I’d argue that it’s not 100%. Sure, I’m controlling the app — but the algorithm is doing the driving. After pressing summon, the expected behavior is for the algorithm to not crash into things.

I hear you but that's why this feature and many others are called "beta software". Among other things there's a perception it limits Tesla's liability, the consumer accepts risk, yada yada. I'll leave it to the lawyers to determine if that is true or not but like any legal matter I would not hold out hope for an equitable solution.

 

[SalisburySam]

I also vote for "you're responsible" and just be grateful that insurance is covering it. Mine almost hit a cart corral once and I stopped it just time. After that; no more. It's just not worth it for what it is. A parlor trick only without any useful function.

I’d argue that smart summon does have a very useful function: bringing the vehicle to you. The implementation though does indeed render it a parlor trick. I’ve used it several times in parking lots in heavy rains where my umbrella was safe and dry in the car’s trunk. Worked every time. Even with the old software that performs this function but with my still-active radar and USS it works reasonably well. I can’t imagine smart summon ever working at all on TV. We’ll see around September 1…that’s roughly two weeks away right?

 

[E90alex]

I’d argue that it’s not 100%. Sure, I’m controlling the app — but the algorithm is doing the driving. After pressing summon, the expected behavior is for the algorithm to not crash into things.

The rule is to be within 200 feet and in the line of sight. But being in the line of sight does not give you a clear view of every obstacle or the car’s actual intent. Controlling summon is way different from being in the driver seat — and that’s why it is not 100% IMHO.

You can argue all you want but you’re still 100% liable. Who else is going to take the rest of the blame if you’re not taking full responsibility? Tesla absolutely isn’t going to and you won’t win that argument with them.

If you can’t see all obstacles around the car then you’re supposed to move closer. It’s nothing more than a party trick until they get to full level 4/5 autonomy and accept liability for what the car does.

 

[zoomer0056]

I’d argue that it’s not 100%. Sure, I’m controlling the app — but the algorithm is doing the driving. After pressing summon, the expected behavior is for the algorithm to not crash into things.

The rule is to be within 200 feet and in the line of sight. But being in the line of sight does not give you a clear view of every obstacle or the car’s actual intent. Controlling summon is way different from being in the driver seat — and that’s why it is not 100% IMHO.

You're definitely not in the driver seat driving. However, you should know the risks and your responsibility. If you hurt someone while remotely operating your car, it's on you.

 

[JB47394]

I can’t imagine smart summon ever working at all on TV.

If you were driving the car to the person summoning it, could you do it exclusively through the visualization and map data?

 

[Twiglett]

I’d argue that it’s not 100%. Sure, I’m controlling the app — but the algorithm is doing the driving. After pressing summon, the expected behavior is for the algorithm to not crash into things.

The rule is to be within 200 feet and in the line of sight. But being in the line of sight does not give you a clear view of every obstacle or the car’s actual intent. Controlling summon is way different from being in the driver seat — and that’s why it is not 100% IMHO.

The manual uses the phrase “clear line of sight” thats up to you to to do that. It also clearly says that it’s your responsibility to stay in control of the car.
The manual also clearly states that it requires supervision because it may run into things, so it definitely does not set any expectation that it will not damage something or someone.
So you are 100% responsible

 

[Midpack]

I’d argue that it’s not 100%. Sure, I’m controlling the app — but the algorithm is doing the driving. After pressing summon, the expected behavior is for the algorithm to not crash into things.

The rule is to be within 200 feet and in the line of sight. But being in the line of sight does not give you a clear view of every obstacle or the car’s actual intent. Controlling summon is way different from being in the driver seat — and that’s why it is not 100% IMHO.

It's pretty clear no matter what you expected.

 

[ALSETJC]

I feel for you, I've had nothing but problems with any of the FSD features including Smart Summon. I can't even keep FSD on for more than a minute without it doing something that makes me cancel and take over.

 

[SalisburySam]

If you were driving the car to the person summoning it, could you do it exclusively through the visualization and map data?

Not likely, I’d need to look outside.

 

[ALSETJC]

Sometimes for costs under 3000 in damage its better to skip the claim as your premiums will make sure you pay for it an more. This is why so many people don't want to go through insurance for fender benders.

 

[JB47394]

Not likely, I’d need to look outside.

I was asking primarily as a way of finding out whether you believe the information on the screen is accurate. You'd want to look outside, but could you pull off a smart summon based on what you see on the screen? Any half-competent gamer could do it quite easily, and they would succeed if the information on the screen was accurate. That's the only part about relying on cameras that's significant. If the cameras can collect enough information to accurately understand the environment around the car, then summon can be made to work just fine.

So I assert that the camera setup is sufficient to make smart summon work. It is the ancient summon control software that is the current problem, and that's something that Tesla should be able to improve dramatically. Assuming they ever get around to it.

In closing, I don't mean to suggest that the vision system is perfect. I was parking my car the other day and, according to the visualization, I drove right through a trash bin. In fact, at one point I stopped with the bin in the middle of the car. If I had been driving entirely by visualization, I would have worked to avoid the trash bin - and possibly driven into it at its actual location.

 

[SalisburySam]

I was asking primarily as a way of finding out whether you believe the information on the screen is accurate.

I don’t. The visualization is just that: a rendering, and it can be scarily wrong. I do think the actual information received from the sensors and the software in the car is far better though, just not rendered correctly. I don’t know this for a fact but…see below..

You'd want to look outside, but could you pull off a smart summon based on what you see on the screen? Any half-competent gamer could do it quite easily, and they would succeed if the information on the screen was accurate. That's the only part about relying on cameras that's significant. If the cameras can collect enough information to accurately understand the environment around the car, then summon can be made to work just fine.

Yes, one would think. On my 2018 M3, the system uses the cameras, USS, and radar for smart summon…at least theoretically. Should be enough to understand the environment, and it seems to do so rather well.

So I assert that the camera setup is sufficient to make smart summon work.

Maybe, even probably. The good news in my case is that with my camera/radar/USS sensor suite on v2022.20.8 smart summon actually does work. Yeah, it’s a parlor trick, but it has helped me in at least half a dozen heavy rain events. I don’t wish to lose the ability by “upgrading” to newer software that cripples the vehicle.

It is the ancient summon control software that is the current problem, and that's something that Tesla should be able to improve dramatically. Assuming they ever get around to it.

In closing, I don't mean to suggest that the vision system is perfect. I was parking my car the other day and, according to the visualization, I drove right through a trash bin. In fact, at one point I stopped with the bin in the middle of the car. If I had been driving entirely by visualization, I would have worked to avoid the trash bin - and possibly driven into it at its actual location.

Could be. I’m still waiting for TV parity to what I have with cameras/radar/USS.