I think we're saying the same thing. No evidence, not enough data... Let's move on.
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Thanks @aesculus, that's exactly what I was getting at. Lifting off the accelerator is very similar to braking and hence the accelerator pedal can get associated with "slowing down". If one has to brake very quickly, it's possible that we'll forget which pedal our foot is on and depress the accelerator instead of brake.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
Great thread.... but I have to ask. What if it did accelerate on its own?
Is it simply impossible? Other cars have done so. Automakers always blame the driver.
But what if it is not the driver's fault?
Put yourself in the position of being behind the wheel... and this happens... and you know
that you did nothing wrong. Tesla comes out and says... software shows you pressed the
accelerator to the floor... you know for a fact that you did not.
As a consumer, how do you prove a software defect? It is not like you can hold up a broken part
and say: see! I told you!! What would you do if you were in the position of knowing you were right, but proven wrong?
Is it simply impossible? Other cars have done so. Automakers always blame the driver.
But what if it is not the driver's fault?
Put yourself in the position of being behind the wheel... and this happens... and you know
that you did nothing wrong. Tesla comes out and says... software shows you pressed the
accelerator to the floor... you know for a fact that you did not.
As a consumer, how do you prove a software defect? It is not like you can hold up a broken part
and say: see! I told you!! What would you do if you were in the position of knowing you were right, but proven wrong?
Have a look at post #169 in this thread. The driver was at fault, as confirmed by wk057.
X owner claims unintended acceleration caused accident
Barklikeadog
Active Member
That wasn't my question. This is a hypothetical. It is a -what if-
Technology and software isn't perfect. What if you were the guy behind the wheel, a malfunction actually
happened, you did nothing wrong, yet Tesla or another automaker says it was your fault. How do you make
a case? How as a consumer do you prove that a piece of software is faulty? Is your lawyer going to buy 50
model X, the same make and model and miles as yours and run the same real life scenario 1000 times to see
if just one of those particular times was the perfect storm to trigger a false action? No. Not possible. So it
is your fault, and you did nothing wrong. What if you took and passed a polygraph test that shows you did not
do what they claim you did? Tesla will still say you're fault.
Right now Apple is being sued for 'touch disease' that they deny the existence of. If it happens to 100 people, nobody
knows about it and the owner has to pay for repairs, but it has happened to a lot of people, so now they -know- something
is wrong. Yet Apple still denies. The consumer is unable to prove the glitch exists, all they have is their experience.
What will be interesting in 20 years is when accidents occur under computer driven vehicles. The insurance companies
will be the ones tasked with proving software errors.
In regards to catching actual car-initiated unintended acceleration, the car data logs should show an accelerator press and no brake press for a normal person-caused acceleration. It would take multiple simultaneous failures for it to self-accelerate in a way that didn't show up in the data logs. As in the car accelerates on its own (failure #1) but does not log any brake press (failure #2) and does log an accelerator press (failure #3). What are the chances of that happening? And right when a person would normally start braking? And someone pointed out that the accelerator usually has two sensors, requiring another failure. I would think the brakes would be the same.
Easy enough to brain-glitch on the pedals. One day at a Porsche Club parking lot driving event I ended up having to push all three pedals simultaneously to come to a stop when I lost track of where they were relative to my feet while concentrating more on positioning the car on the track. Oops!
Easy enough to brain-glitch on the pedals. One day at a Porsche Club parking lot driving event I ended up having to push all three pedals simultaneously to come to a stop when I lost track of where they were relative to my feet while concentrating more on positioning the car on the track. Oops!
The accelerator pedal uses two independent hall effect sensors. These are both routed through different wiring harnesses on each side of the car and eventually go directly to the inverter at the rear motor. These sensors each have their own offsets so they can be compared for consistency/accuracy. If the readings from the sensors don't perfectly pass sanity checks in the inverter then the car doesn't move and it throws an alert to the driver to that effect.
The brakes on cars with the iBooster system (all autopilot cars) have about 6 different sensors for braking related data. The pedal switch, the iBooster position, and the ESP2's braking force per wheel. The brakes are a mechanical system using hydraulics with the iBooster providing assistance. Even with no power the brakes can be used with sufficient force, just like steering.
For autopilot, the system does not command acceleration. The autopilot module tells the inverter, via the gateway, the maximum speed to achieve at the time and a maximum rate of acceleration or deceleration (capped at something like 2m/s^2). The inverter then takes this data along with all of the wheel speeds, among other things, and does the speed changes requested by the ADAS system. Under no circumstances, with the software as it stands, can the autopilot system command acceleration similar to a pedal-to-the-floor situation. The inverter also has a direct connection to the brake sense switch and cancels all actions not directly commanded by the driver (cruise control, autopilot, autopark, etc) immediately upon pressing the brake. In any case, the autopilot system only requests limits to speed and acceleration. It never commands a particular pedal position or anything similar. Its abilities are literally just an extension of the cruise control system.
And let's note that all of the above is logged, over a dozen related data points, not just pedal and brakes.
Long story short, it is *impossible* for these cars to accelerate at anywhere near full power unless the driver commands it via the accelerator pedal. It doesn't matter what the driver claims afterward. If the car accelerated, the accelerator pedal was pressed. Simple as that. Anyone claiming otherwise is wrong/lying.
The brakes on cars with the iBooster system (all autopilot cars) have about 6 different sensors for braking related data. The pedal switch, the iBooster position, and the ESP2's braking force per wheel. The brakes are a mechanical system using hydraulics with the iBooster providing assistance. Even with no power the brakes can be used with sufficient force, just like steering.
For autopilot, the system does not command acceleration. The autopilot module tells the inverter, via the gateway, the maximum speed to achieve at the time and a maximum rate of acceleration or deceleration (capped at something like 2m/s^2). The inverter then takes this data along with all of the wheel speeds, among other things, and does the speed changes requested by the ADAS system. Under no circumstances, with the software as it stands, can the autopilot system command acceleration similar to a pedal-to-the-floor situation. The inverter also has a direct connection to the brake sense switch and cancels all actions not directly commanded by the driver (cruise control, autopilot, autopark, etc) immediately upon pressing the brake. In any case, the autopilot system only requests limits to speed and acceleration. It never commands a particular pedal position or anything similar. Its abilities are literally just an extension of the cruise control system.
And let's note that all of the above is logged, over a dozen related data points, not just pedal and brakes.
Long story short, it is *impossible* for these cars to accelerate at anywhere near full power unless the driver commands it via the accelerator pedal. It doesn't matter what the driver claims afterward. If the car accelerated, the accelerator pedal was pressed. Simple as that. Anyone claiming otherwise is wrong/lying.
brucet999
Active Member
brucet999
Active Member
Tesla says car was going 6mph when accelerator pedal went to 100%.
Pulling into a parking space at 6 mph is pretty aggressive driving IMO. Driving down the aisle of a parking lot at 6mph, ok, but into the stall?
brucet999
Active Member
What does gear shift position have to do with mistaking accelerator for brake?
Tesla says the car was going 6mph when the accelerator was pressed to 100%, so no one was attempting to shift into "park".
brucet999
Active Member
Small elevators of two or three floors are often hydraulic operated, hence lots of oil spilled from the damaged ram.
brucet999
Active Member
Two different issues.
Summon/auto park couldn't stop the car from hitting the parked trailer because it approached the semi trailer from the front. That means that there was nothing below 4 feet high for the radar and/or bumper proximity sensors to detect until the landing legs, about 8 to 10 feet back from the leading edge of the trailer. Impact was to the windshield.
In the present case, how long do you suppose it takes for a car that can accelerate to 60mph in 4 seconds to travel 39 feet at full acceleration from 6mph? Given that radar is looking for a doppler change while tracking the car in front of you, it does not see stationary objects so it would not have set off braking. Proximity sensors have range of 15 feet, so they may have warned, but are to set up to stop the car.
brucet999
Active Member
"Creep" does not move the car at 6mph. She seems to have been aggressively pulling into the parking space at 6mph when she hit the accelerator instead of the brake, hence wheel still turning left.
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brucet999
Active Member
int32_t
Tesla Spotter
Yep, I took issue before with relying 100% on logs as the be-all-end-all. I too asked the, "What if?" question, and it still nagged me because I wouldn't want to be blamed if my car really did accelerate on its own. After the great information @wk057 offered, though, I can see the vehicle is obviously wired to prevent this issue from occurring, making it impossible to happen "by itself." Once again, I trust Tesla's word on the logs!
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