Also, if the fix to match efficiency is to completely disable the front motor, where do they get the savings to compensate for the higher weight of the second motor?
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Winter Range Anxiety - P85D , can I keep this car?
- Thread starter sandpiper
- Start date
Also, if the fix to match efficiency is to completely disable the front motor, where do they get the savings to compensate for the higher weight of the second motor?
Adm
Active Member
When a heavier car has the same range compared to a lighter car there is increased effiency.
...and the energy require to back drive the other motor and gearbox.
Supposedly because the gear ratio in the front motor is set for max eff at highway speeds, and not acceleration. It's effectively like having a two speed transmission.
Thats very true, but it's also splitting hairs. From an owner's perspective, at any rate, increased efficiency is pretty much meaningless without a corresponding increase in range.
Still, all it would have taken to head off this tempest-in-a-teapot would be for Tesla to have a) announced that they had managed to improve the efficiency of the drivetrain such that the benefits of AWD were available without any range reduction, and b) mentioned the coming software upgrade before the first owners got their hands on their new P85Ds. For TM to think that TMC wouldn't be all over a shortfall in promised specs the moment cars were delivered is touchingly naive (insert your own adverb for 'touchingly', as the mood strikes).
Exactly. Wtf were they thinking in not simply pre announcing that max range is not available yet - and that it was coming in an update? Surely they were aware that people,would notice?! This was colossally stupid. Somebody in PR should be looking for new opportunities.
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Nope. Assuming that the goal is to move people and cargo, and not just the car. The weight of the car is irrelevant.
Elon didn't say the front motor. He said the second. It's likely the car will dynamically change between motors. The front motor is likely geared to be more efficient at highway speeds.
That makes sense. It would,run off of whichever one is in more optimal region of power curve.
He also spoke about getting the reaction times down to the millisecond level. It's likely the car will not only dynamically change for the optimal power curve, but simultaneously shift for traction, regen, etc. If done well it's likely you can obtain all the benefits with little downside.
Well, in any case I'm feeling a LOT better. I was pretty concerned for a bit there.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
It's clear the "more efficient" AWD car is going to be the 85D. Did Elon ever say in the D unveiling that "both," "all," or explicitly "the P85D" would be more efficient?
I'll be happy if the P85D can be brought up to same highway range of the P85+. Pretty darn impressed, actually, given the extra weight and HP.
If I wanted efficiency I would have ordered an 85 or 85D with 19"s.
I'll be happy if the P85D can be brought up to same highway range of the P85+. Pretty darn impressed, actually, given the extra weight and HP.
If I wanted efficiency I would have ordered an 85 or 85D with 19"s.
I see this thread is a little dated, but have been considering upgrading to a P85D from my regular 85 model. This thread has convinced me to wait. I love my Model S and can live with it for another year or two until Tesla makes the necessary updates.
I had to laugh at some of the posts in this thread...Go buy one of the more expensive cars on the planet at well over $100,000 and per suggestions.....
1. Drive it 55 MPH in the slow lane behind all the big rigs.
2. When cold, wear a jacket and beeney on your head to keep warm, so you can leave the heater off.
3. Find a place you can stop for an hour or two to top off your charge, EVERY SINGLE DAY!
I mean really?? Spend $100 grand on a car to suffer through that stuff!! LOL, LOL
The P85D is a performance car. People will buy it for that reason and it should be able to be driven, COMFORTABLY as a performance sedan and easily make it between superchargers. From all of my research, it appears that a comfortable must have range number is at least 200 miles. Sure, that's easy, even in a P85D if you drive 65-70 MPH, in warm weather. But, when it's cold out, that drops down about 15% to around 170 miles. If you end up in traffic in the cold, the heater is going to suck up even more of that energy, reducing range further. It appears that, to be safe, you can count on about 60-65% of the EPA range in the worst conditions. If you want to travel with the typical flow of traffic on most open highways between cities, speed is going to be closer to 75-80 MPH. Therefore, to be able to enjoy your $100,000+++ car and drive it like you would any other $100+grand car, 50% of the EPA rated range appears to be the safe figure you can count on. Puts you around 130 miles, if you in very cold weather and want to cruise in comfort with the heater on at 75-80 MPH.
I would think Tesla can improve that easily with software updates. I know the regular 85D has a better range and supposedly can utilize only one motor for better range. Maybe it already does, but would think the P85D could perform equally if the system just shut down the rear 470 HP motor when cruising on the highway. The 221 HP front motor will easily pull the car along at 80 MPH. Again, maybe it already does, but I haven't found where they've indicated this is the case yet. If so, highway range should then be equal to the regular 85D.
For me, my wishlist before upgrading is going to be....
1. 110 kWh battery. The extra 25 kwh should increase the worst case scenario range to around 175 miles. OK, now I can live with that as it would only take a very minor inconvenience to alter your driving to safely go the necessary 200 miles between charging.
2. 4G cellular service is a must. Sorry, the web browser in my car is hideously slow with the current 3g service. I find myself linking my car to my cell phones 4g service and it performs so much better. Problem is, I have to pay for that extra data through my cell phone. No reason this car shouldn't have 4g service. If Chevy can put it in a $15,000 car, Tesla can put it in a $140,000 car.
3. An Auto-Pilot system that actually works. I know it's in the Beta stages now, but from everything I've read, it's a long way from being truly functional and reliable. I drove a loaner car with it and it made me nervous as hell. Right now, they're effectively charging $3,000 for a glorified adaptive cruise control system.
4. A center console option that can be ordered with the car new and in the same material as I chose (other than Piano Black).
The above items are MUST HAVES before I will upgrades.
The following are simple wish list items that I would love to see in the car...
1. Door pockets (seriously, can we get just a little extra storage space in this car so everything isn't flopping around inside? Not all of us can drive the car with nothing in it)
2. Rear seat climate control
3. A rear seat with pull down arm-rest in the center seat.
4. New front bumper without the clip in plastic nose cone. Someone actually stole my nose cone. Afterward, I realized how easy it is to take off. Literally, just a tiny tugg and it's off. Kind of ridiculous.
5. A rear spoiler that goes edge to edge of the rear hatch, rather than stopping several inches short on each side.
6. Less camber in the rear end so we can quit wearing out the very expensive high performance tires in 15,000 miles.
7. More flexible use of the air suspension. Why can't I drive with the car in the high setting if I want to?
8. For Tesla to "lighten up a little". I hate their "Always Say No" attitude. If someone wants to upgrade their seats to Next Gen seats, at their own expense, why say no? If someone wants to upgrade their battery, at their own expense, why say no?
I had to laugh at some of the posts in this thread...Go buy one of the more expensive cars on the planet at well over $100,000 and per suggestions.....
1. Drive it 55 MPH in the slow lane behind all the big rigs.
2. When cold, wear a jacket and beeney on your head to keep warm, so you can leave the heater off.
3. Find a place you can stop for an hour or two to top off your charge, EVERY SINGLE DAY!
I mean really?? Spend $100 grand on a car to suffer through that stuff!! LOL, LOL
The P85D is a performance car. People will buy it for that reason and it should be able to be driven, COMFORTABLY as a performance sedan and easily make it between superchargers. From all of my research, it appears that a comfortable must have range number is at least 200 miles. Sure, that's easy, even in a P85D if you drive 65-70 MPH, in warm weather. But, when it's cold out, that drops down about 15% to around 170 miles. If you end up in traffic in the cold, the heater is going to suck up even more of that energy, reducing range further. It appears that, to be safe, you can count on about 60-65% of the EPA range in the worst conditions. If you want to travel with the typical flow of traffic on most open highways between cities, speed is going to be closer to 75-80 MPH. Therefore, to be able to enjoy your $100,000+++ car and drive it like you would any other $100+grand car, 50% of the EPA rated range appears to be the safe figure you can count on. Puts you around 130 miles, if you in very cold weather and want to cruise in comfort with the heater on at 75-80 MPH.
I would think Tesla can improve that easily with software updates. I know the regular 85D has a better range and supposedly can utilize only one motor for better range. Maybe it already does, but would think the P85D could perform equally if the system just shut down the rear 470 HP motor when cruising on the highway. The 221 HP front motor will easily pull the car along at 80 MPH. Again, maybe it already does, but I haven't found where they've indicated this is the case yet. If so, highway range should then be equal to the regular 85D.
For me, my wishlist before upgrading is going to be....
1. 110 kWh battery. The extra 25 kwh should increase the worst case scenario range to around 175 miles. OK, now I can live with that as it would only take a very minor inconvenience to alter your driving to safely go the necessary 200 miles between charging.
2. 4G cellular service is a must. Sorry, the web browser in my car is hideously slow with the current 3g service. I find myself linking my car to my cell phones 4g service and it performs so much better. Problem is, I have to pay for that extra data through my cell phone. No reason this car shouldn't have 4g service. If Chevy can put it in a $15,000 car, Tesla can put it in a $140,000 car.
3. An Auto-Pilot system that actually works. I know it's in the Beta stages now, but from everything I've read, it's a long way from being truly functional and reliable. I drove a loaner car with it and it made me nervous as hell. Right now, they're effectively charging $3,000 for a glorified adaptive cruise control system.
4. A center console option that can be ordered with the car new and in the same material as I chose (other than Piano Black).
The above items are MUST HAVES before I will upgrades.
The following are simple wish list items that I would love to see in the car...
1. Door pockets (seriously, can we get just a little extra storage space in this car so everything isn't flopping around inside? Not all of us can drive the car with nothing in it)
2. Rear seat climate control
3. A rear seat with pull down arm-rest in the center seat.
4. New front bumper without the clip in plastic nose cone. Someone actually stole my nose cone. Afterward, I realized how easy it is to take off. Literally, just a tiny tugg and it's off. Kind of ridiculous.
5. A rear spoiler that goes edge to edge of the rear hatch, rather than stopping several inches short on each side.
6. Less camber in the rear end so we can quit wearing out the very expensive high performance tires in 15,000 miles.
7. More flexible use of the air suspension. Why can't I drive with the car in the high setting if I want to?
8. For Tesla to "lighten up a little". I hate their "Always Say No" attitude. If someone wants to upgrade their seats to Next Gen seats, at their own expense, why say no? If someone wants to upgrade their battery, at their own expense, why say no?
Krugerrand
Meow
You're must be unaware that there are entire countries where 75-80mph on the highway will get you pulled over for a ticket in the summer. As well, one does not often drive 75-80mph in the winter time where the climate actually gets cold (meaning there can often times be snow and ice on the road). I know some of us sometimes forget that where we live isn't always what happens in the rest of the world.
mknox
Well-Known Member
My commute takes me on a freeway with a 100 km/h (63 MPH) speed limit, but traffic is frequently moving in the 75 to 80 MPH range, and often faster. There is very little enforcement. I've had a Tesla loaner on a couple of occasions with the 80 MPH governor and have had to move over multiple times to let cars pass because I can't keep up with the flow!! In nice weather, I have found that those speeds don't cost me a whole lot in terms of efficiently and can still come in at sub 300 Wh/mi at the end of my daily 90 mile round trip. Now winter is a whole other story!
Krugerrand
Meow
I'm the OP on this thread. I've had the car for about 4-5 months now so my perspective is better.
It's summer now, so all these problems have miraculously gone away but I still feel that this still a big issue for cold climates if we're to consider the car to be an all out replacement for an ICE. Elon talks about 200 mile range, but the current model doesn't have it in the winter.
The reality is that the P85D has a -25C, comfy and warm, normal highway speed winter range of around 170-180 km. You can extend by cutting heat and being the slowest car on the road, but that makes it a pretty miserable car to drive. Is this an issue for normal driving around town on a day-to-day basis? Heck no. In fact, it's a really great winter car for daily use.
But, come January & February next year, I'm not even going to attempt to use the Tesla on long trips. I'll use one of our other vehicles.
For it to be a practical tripping vehicle in really cold weather, where you can be comfortable and travel normal speeds, you need at least 120kwh. And 150 would be better.
mknox
Well-Known Member
That's just it... never. The OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) don't seem to patrol and only show up at accident scenes as far as I can tell. I just passed my 10 year anniversary working for the company that takes me on this commute so I have a fair bit of morning and evening experience on that section of freeway. Luckily my commute is in the opposite direction of most, and the opposing lanes on the other side of the barriers are usually slow to stopped dead. Maybe the cops are focussed more on that side of the road. Just this morning, I was in a flow of cars going around 80 MPH (130 km/h) and there were still others weaving in and out because apparently, that's not fast enough.
There's a strange sort of acceptance by the police on the 400 series highways that they don't nail anybody who is travelling with the flow, no matter what the speed of the general flow is. And it results in absolutely everybody breaking the law, only the really excessive speeders getting tickets, and the average speed being fairly appropriate. Yet if you were to make a suggestion that the speed limits on the 400 series highways to a reasonable speed, you'd be tarred and feathered as a baby killer. Bizarre.
You confirmed the points I was making. It's sad that you have to have another car to drive for two months out of the year. And I said 110kWh, I like your 120 kWh better. I think whatever kWh figure it takes for the car to go 200 miles on a single charge in the worst case scenario of environments would be satisfactory.
It's funny, after I wrote my previous post, I've watched a few of the reviews on Youtube, Consumer Reports, Kelly Blue Book, Etc, Etc. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM loved the car, but had the same exact complaint about this car having virtually no storage space. With as tall as the center console is, I'm amazed that they can't spare a few square inches in it to create some storage space for wallets, sunglasses, etc... And seriously, how hard would it be to add some map pockets to the doors?
My current car has the center console and it is amazing. It gives you TONS of storage space and should be a factory option when buying new. I'm still shocked that after nearly three years, they can't figure out how to put Obeche wood or carbon fiber on the little 6" x 6" door flap though. They have no problem putting that material on the "yacht" floor which is much larger, but according to a letter Tesla sent out, they're still unable to figure out how to create a 6" x 6" piece. Kind of ridiculous for a company this intelligent!
Love the car, looking forward to upgrading to the latest model once they solve a few more issues (4g, 110+ kWh battery, storage space, etc..)
I travel 150+ miles each way each weekend this past winter to VT. Traveling about 75mph I would arrive with about 50 RM left. In my view your solution is not to add battery, which adds cost and weight, but rather to increase the number of supercharge stations. Charging once in these trips is reasonable and breaks things up. I am very fortunate in that my route has 3 separate stations along the way (West Hartford, West Springfield and Brattleboro.). We are still very early in the buildout. In a few years, these conversations will all have vanished.
+1 on superchargers every 150mi instead of a larger battery.
More battery means I'm paying a weight penalty every time I drive, regardless of the distance. The only time larger battery helps is if I can make a trip without stopping with a larger battery, but would need to stop with a smaller one.
More battery means I'm paying a weight penalty every time I drive, regardless of the distance. The only time larger battery helps is if I can make a trip without stopping with a larger battery, but would need to stop with a smaller one.
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