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Will the Model 3 be Ludicrously Fast?

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It worries me when I see people talk about the Model 3 in relation to the tax credit. I don't think people realize it's a credit off their federal tax liability. The catch is a person's tax liability cannot be less than zero. I wonder how many people who can't afford a higher end Model 3 would have income high enough to have a $7500 tax liability.

Most people will have tax liability greater than zero, and even if they have less than $7500 in federal tax liability, they will still get to claim a portion of it. Obviously there are some retirees and other situations where people may have very little federal tax liabilities.

If you make $46,550 using 2014 tax tables and have no other deductions of any kind then your tax liability is exactly $7500 and you will get to claim the full $7500 tax credit.
 
If you're buying a $40k car you pretty much have over $7500 unless you're retired or have some special circumstances. If you don't you can always lease the car and it gets rolled into the price of the lease.

Furthermore the Model 3 will NOT have the $7500 tax credit for long because it's only for the first 200,000 vehicles per manufacturer. Tesla is already over 50,000 sold and will likely Sell 50,000 next year in the US so 2017 they will only have it for the beginning of the year before they run out.

Would you like some more accurate numbers to play with? It doesn't run out any time soon and it doesn't run out all at once.

I'm going to quote myself from another thread.

since it's been a few months I'll update the sales numbers

US running total Tesla Sales vs 200,000 for federal credit phase out trigger
2011 end 1,900
2012 end 4,550 (2,650 for 2012 + prior year)
2013 end 22,200 (14,650 for 2013 + prior years)
2014 end 39,500 (17,300 for 2014 + prior years)

2015 Aug 54,000 (14,500 for partial 2015 + prior years)

The current rate has them selling more than 20,000 in the US for 2015. Ramping up Model X and production in general might trigger the 200,000 mark in 2018? I figure it'll be a Model 3 that is the 200,000th sold in the US (or at least Model 3 sales will be under the 200,000 mark and contribute to the total).

The phase-out period stretches over one year, beginning in the second calendar quarter after the quarter in which the manufacturer hits the 200,000 vehicle US sales mark. From there, all qualifying vehicles sold by the manufacturer are eligible for 50% of their specified credit for the first two quarters and 25% of the credit for the next two quarters.

For example if a manufacturer sells its 200,000th vehicle in the first quarter (Q1) of 2018, the credit amounts for all of that manufacturer's eligible vehicles would phase out as shown in the table below.

Tax Credit Phase-Out Schedule Quarter Credit
Q1 2018 Full amount
Q2 2018 Full amount
Q3 2018 50% of full amount
Q4 2018 50% of full amount
Q1 2019 25% of full amount
Q2 2019 25% of full amount
Q3 2019 No credit

It's entirely possible that it will trigger sooner and run out sooner but the important concept is that it doesn't go away immediately and when it starts going away it diminishes slowly not all at once.

If Tesla is pumping out 10,000 plus a month in 2018 they could easily sell 50,000 or more with the full tax credit. They could then be selling double that amount in the next 6 months with half tax credit. And then double rate again with 1/4 tax credit. All in all hundreds of thousands of Model 3s could be sold with federal tax credit.

Keep in mind Tesla can game this slightly by focusing on overseas deliveries of Model S and Model X the month they are going to roll over 200,000 US deliveries. If that rolls them into the next quarter it extends the tax credit by 3 months no matter how many they sell after that.

Now to update the current totals at end of October 2015 would be

US running total Tesla Sales vs 200,000 for federal credit phase out trigger
2011 end 1,900
2012 end 4,550 (2,650 for 2012 + prior year)
2013 end 22,200 (14,650 for 2013 + prior years)
2014 end 39,500 (17,300 for 2014 + prior years)

2015 Oct 58,400 (18,900 for partial 2015 + prior years)

If we do another 5,000 US in 2015 we'll be around 64,000 US by end of 2015.

Do the math if Tesla is doing less than 25,000 a year US in 2015 how many years will it take to hit 200,000 US sales? They'll ramp up S and X production but there will still be plenty of discounts on Model 3.

Lets say 50,000 US for 2016 and 75,000 US for 2017, and maybe some of the tail of 2017 are founders Model 3. Then in 1Q 2018 they open the floodgates and a ton of Signature Model 3s come out, in 2Q 2018 a ton of regular model 3s come out all with full tax credit. Hoorah, look at this again

Tax Credit Phase-Out Schedule Quarter Credit
Q4 2017 founders Model 3 with full credit
Q1 2018 signature Model 3 with Full credit
Q2 2018 production Model 3 with Full credit (will they be making 10,000 a week by then? Maybe 12 weeks worth is 100,000 Model 3s with full credit?)
Q3 2018 50% of full amount (maybe 100,000 Model 3s with half credit)
Q4 2018 50% of full amount (maybe 100,000 Model 3s with half credit, with extra production going outside the US)
Q1 2019 25% of full amount (maybe 100,000 Model 3s with quarter credit, with extra production going outside the US)
Q2 2019 25% of full amount (maybe 100,000 Model 3s with quarter credit, with extra production going outside the US)
Q3 2019 No credit

all in all they might get out 100,00 with full credit, 200,000 with half credit, and another 200,000 with quarter credit. I'd hardly call 500,00 Model 3s in 2018/2019 the same as your version of none of them getting the credit.

Shift that back a quarter and 100,000 less cars get a full credit, shift that forward a quarter and 100,000 more get a full credit. Just depends when they can start cranking out Model 3 en masse.
 
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Most people will have tax liability greater than zero, and even if they have less than $7500 in federal tax liability, they will still get to claim a portion of it. Obviously there are some retirees and other situations where people may have very little federal tax liabilities.

If you make $46,550 using 2014 tax tables and have no other deductions of any kind then your tax liability is exactly $7500 and you will get to claim the full $7500 tax credit.

If your "Taxable Income" is $46,550 you might have that liability.

Working down a form 1040 (long form) the labels are

7 - Wages, salaries, tips, etc (think gross income)

a bunch of other possible sources of income

22 - Total income
37 - Adjusted Gross Income

40 - Itemized or Standard Deduction
42 - Exemptions

43 - Taxable income

For anyone with simple taxes 7, 22, 37 will be the same but 40 will be $12,400 for a married couple with no kids and no itemized deductions and line 42 will be $7,900.

meaning for that simple married family of two they'd need line 37 to be $66,850 to get to line 43 being your $46,550 number from the tax table.

for a single person with no dependents or spouse it'd be a lower number but I'm guessing a couple with no kids is likely the closest to simple taxes around the range we want for an example.

(numbers from 2014 tax form, not meant to be tax advice) :)
 
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If we do another 5,000 US in 2015 we'll be around 64,000 US by end of 2015.

If I use my magic 8 ball...

64,000 units end of 2015
+40,000 - S & X in 2016
+50,000 - S & X in 2017

that brings us roughly ~154,000 cars going into 2018. I personally don't think we'll see signification M3 production volume until 2018. Tesla might hit 200,000 in Q3 which leaves all of 2018 in the money for the $7500 Tax Credit. This all assumes the X is going to sell as well as the S, which I'm not yet convinced that it will.
 
If I use my magic 8 ball...

64,000 units end of 2015
+40,000 - S & X in 2016
+50,000 - S & X in 2017

that brings us roughly ~154,000 cars going into 2018. I personally don't think we'll see signification M3 production volume until 2018. Tesla might hit 200,000 in Q3 which leaves all of 2018 in the money for the $7500 Tax Credit. This all assumes the X is going to sell as well as the S, which I'm not yet convinced that it will.

Yes in that scenario where US Tesla sales hit 200,00 in Q3 2018 we would have

Tax Credit Phase-Out Schedule Quarter Credit
Q3 2018 Full amount
Q4 2018 Full amount
Q1 2019 50% of full amount
Q2 2019 50% of full amount
Q3 2019 25% of full amount
Q4 2019 25% of full amount
Q1 2020 No credit

Note "full amount" may not be $7500 by 2018, Congress critters and such can and do muck around. It could be higher or lower if they retcon the law.
 
My entire life I considered myself a car guy, now I am a Tesla guy. There is nothing in the ICE world that I even remotely car about anymore. Every year since I can remember I have gone to either the LA or SD Auto Show, when I found out that there wouldn't be a Model X at this years show I didn't go. If it's not Tesla I am not interested.
 
My entire life I considered myself a car guy, now I am a Tesla guy. There is nothing in the ICE world that I even remotely car about anymore. Every year since I can remember I have gone to either the LA or SD Auto Show, when I found out that there wouldn't be a Model X at this years show I didn't go. If it's not Tesla I am not interested.
There are "car guys" at work who think I'm irrationally obsessed with Tesla. They admit Tesla's are nice cars, but they just don't get the obsession. They know my wife's next car may very well be a Tesla Model 3 and I'm sure they think I'm playing the elitist card saying that. But the fact of the matter is, I really have been spoiled by the Model S. ICE cars, while having their own appeal in their own way, still require stopping at gas stations, still require ongoing maintenance of thousands of moving parts, and still they don't have the get-up-and-go of a Model S, the clean interior, or the cool factor with the high-tech interface. And let's not forget the OTA updates to make it even cooler!

Yes, I too am spoiled by Tesla. And I fully expect the 2017 Model 3 to make my 2013 Model S look like an antique by comparison.
 
My entire life I considered myself a car guy, now I am a Tesla guy. There is nothing in the ICE world that I even remotely car about anymore. Every year since I can remember I have gone to either the LA or SD Auto Show, when I found out that there wouldn't be a Model X at this years show I didn't go. If it's not Tesla I am not interested.
I totally get this, and I'm still going to be ICE for another 2 years (optimistically). I'm died-in-the-wool, work in the industry, been reading Road & Track and Car and Driver for 35 years, and as soon as I dived into the whole Tesla/EV world here last year I'm now so much less excited when the new issues show up in the mailbox. I immediately skim them for EV news, and am saddened when there's none. The only exception was the new Golf R that Teg threw up for conversation last week, we happened to have one at work at the same time and maaannnn that is one amazing little car. I nearly had a moment of weakness there. But then logged in here and regained focus :D
 
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My entire life I considered myself a car guy, now I am a Tesla guy. There is nothing in the ICE world that I even remotely car about anymore. Every year since I can remember I have gone to either the LA or SD Auto Show, when I found out that there wouldn't be a Model X at this years show I didn't go. If it's not Tesla I am not interested.

I feel exactly the same. I still love driving ICE if it is a manual but it already feels like they would be just recreational to me. Like my 79' CB750. It's like why the *@$% would I buy something with a dirty, smelly, inefficient ICE?

I have a Kia Serento and will get a M3 or used S and get rid of my 2002 Protege at that time. I definitely will be going all electric and will replace the Kia with another electric, ASAP, when I can afford something to carry 2 kids, a big dog and all the required support equipment:)