Will the base Model 3 be front wheel drive and the high end version all wheel drive?

[David_Cary]

FWD drive cars have better traction and bad weather handling dynamics when the majority of the mass is in the front, such as front engine ICE cars. When the mass balance becomes more even, such as 50:50 this advantage falls away. I find it unlikely that Tesla will redesign the Gen 3 platform such that all of the mass of the battery is in front. I expect a floor mounted battery similar to the Model S. This would give it 50:50 balance similar to the model S. Therefore I find it unlikely that the Gen 3 will be front wheel drive, because torque steer aside it would be a poor handling vehicle. So, AWD or RWD for Gen 3. Now could we see a FWD economy car from Tesla one day? Possibly. I would expect that would take a big jump in battery energy density to fit it all in front with the motor. But, on the other hand it may never happen, because Tesla has found that the skateboard design is so superior to all others in terms safety and simplicity. Better to keep the big crumple zone up front and the mass as low as possible. The existing electric cars such as the leaf that have the motor in front and the battery in back are just a legacy of the ICE platform that it is built on. As electric cars begin to be clean sheet designs, such as the Model S, I expect FWD drive cars to disappear.

The Leaf battery runs from tire to tire - pretty similar to a Model S. Now it is slightly weight to the back as the rear seats are elevated and the battery is thicker in that area.

Here is one for you - putting the motor in the front and having FWD - puts all the storage in the back. No need for a frunk (except to access motor). One larger storage area is more practical than 2 smaller ones. When a Tesla gets smaller, this advantage becomes more significant. It is also cheaper to have 1 storage area than two.

The disadvantages of FWD that you all mention are legacies of ICE cars. Understeer is a legacy of 60/40 typical FWD weight distribution. Since the battery will still be in the middle, 50/50 is still the distribution. Understeer/oversteer without qualifiers to me involves unpowered situations. If you are saying "trailing throttle oversteer" that is a different story. Torque steer is not an issue with the Leaf as the power backs off before it can happen (and yes torque isn't that high). Now there is still some inherent understeer in FWD cars as there also is in AWD cars. But it does become splitting hairs that most drivers won't notice especially with stability control. And these are things that can be tuned away in the suspension.

With TC and an EV, slippage under power is less of an issue. The real issue of course is traction when weight is shifted rearward during acceleration but there are plenty of FWD cars with sub 6 sec 0-60 but certainly none in the 4s.

The Model 3 has 2 heads - "economical" and "competing with 3 series". Now average joe does not consider the 3 series to be an economical car. Very few people are really expecting the model 3 to be truly "economical". But if Tesla was truly counting pennies and building a small car, FWD still retains some advantage. And +1 for the air flow to cool the motor.

 

[PaulusdB]

I'm missing one aspect in this discussion.
Isn't regeneration of energy more efficient when using four wheels in stead of two?
This of course doesn't matter in ICE cars, but can make a difference in EV cars.

 

[JRP3]

Not sure why people think the liquid cooled motor would benefit from access to airflow.

Regarding regen, unless you are in some way traction limited I don't see how 4 wheels would be any better than 2. Plus when range is most important, in steady state long distance driving, regen is almost nonexistent.

 

[Skotty]

I think there is good reason to suspect that the Model 3 might be front wheel drive (hopefully with an AWD option as well). FWD generally is safer for sloppy drivers (safer and less frightening to understeer than oversteer). More importantly, there are lots of people in the midwest and possibly elsewhere as well that believe strongly that front wheel drive is safer and much better in winter driving conditions. I've heard it countless times in the midwest from lots of different people. True or not, it's what lots of people want.

I would further guess that they will use the same motors as will be used in the S60D and S85D. One in the front for the base model giving you a ~185 hp base car, and AWD for the performance model with ~370 hp. This should make the performance of the base model comparable to any other common ICE, and the performance model a little faster than an S85 but not enough to best a Model S P85 (maybe match it). The S P85D will stand alone as the Tesla supercar until Tesla can get back around to producing another Roadster or similar some day.

 

[JRP3]

The power requirements of a smaller lighter car should be enough sight lower that I'd think the top line AWD 3 could give the SP85D a run for it's money. As has been mentioned since the 3 is directly targeting BMW I'd say there is almost no way they will make it FWD, and I sincerely hope they do not. I don't think Tesla is too worried about what people think in reference to FWD, most people "thought" EV's were underpowered golf carts with no range until Tesla proved otherwise. Besides, I think there are plenty in the Midwest who still appreciate the characteristics of RWD. Not too many FWD hot rods or muscle cars out there....

 

[tdelta1000]

I'd like to see some source for the first statement. The increase in efficiency in the D comes from the fact that the two motors can be "geared" differently.

O

I agree.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Here is one for you - putting the motor in the front and having FWD - puts all the storage in the back. No need for a frunk (except to access motor). One larger storage area is more practical than 2 smaller ones.

Not necessarily. If you remove the rear drive motors, the storage area will be a slightly larger recessed cubby under the rear floor area. This is not necessarily more practical than a separate frunk for groceries.

The disadvantages of FWD that you all mention are legacies of ICE cars. Understeer is a legacy of 60/40 typical FWD weight distribution. Since the battery will still be in the middle, 50/50 is still the distribution.

The 50/50 weight distribution actually makes it worse than an FWD ICE in terms of understeer/winter traction, because there is less weight over the drive and turning wheels.

Personally, I think it would be a huge mistake to make an FWD Model 3 because the premium market tends to favor RWD and there is very little advantage to FWD in a dedicated EV (esp. with how good traction control is nowadays and the much better weight balance of EVs). In an ICE car, there is a huge cost and packaging advantage to FWD that just doesn't exist for EVs (built ground-up).

 

[JST]

The Leaf battery runs from tire to tire - pretty similar to a Model S. Now it is slightly weight to the back as the rear seats are elevated and the battery is thicker in that area.

Here is one for you - putting the motor in the front and having FWD - puts all the storage in the back. No need for a frunk (except to access motor). One larger storage area is more practical than 2 smaller ones. When a Tesla gets smaller, this advantage becomes more significant. It is also cheaper to have 1 storage area than two.

The disadvantages of FWD that you all mention are legacies of ICE cars. Understeer is a legacy of 60/40 typical FWD weight distribution. Since the battery will still be in the middle, 50/50 is still the distribution. Understeer/oversteer without qualifiers to me involves unpowered situations. If you are saying "trailing throttle oversteer" that is a different story. Torque steer is not an issue with the Leaf as the power backs off before it can happen (and yes torque isn't that high). Now there is still some inherent understeer in FWD cars as there also is in AWD cars. But it does become splitting hairs that most drivers won't notice especially with stability control. And these are things that can be tuned away in the suspension.

With TC and an EV, slippage under power is less of an issue. The real issue of course is traction when weight is shifted rearward during acceleration but there are plenty of FWD cars with sub 6 sec 0-60 but certainly none in the 4s.

The Model 3 has 2 heads - "economical" and "competing with 3 series". Now average joe does not consider the 3 series to be an economical car. Very few people are really expecting the model 3 to be truly "economical". But if Tesla was truly counting pennies and building a small car, FWD still retains some advantage. And +1 for the air flow to cool the motor.

Part of the propensity for understeer comes from weight distribution--but a big part of it comes from asking the front wheels to both turn and put down power. That problem is going to be there whether your front wheels are driven by an ICE, an electric motor, or a steam engine.

Fwd has been recognized as having packaging advantages since at least the Traction Avant, but that assumes a large ICE/transmission. The Model S motor is small enough that it can be mounted in what's otherwise "dead space" up under the rear seat. As someone else noted, putting the motor in the nose of the car would give you a big cubby under the seats that would essentially be unusable.

Given the company's focus on performance. I'd put the chances of a FWD Model 3 at about zero percent. Maybe less. For people worried about snow traction, I've no doubt there will be a Model 3D, with or without cardboard glasses.

 

[Skotty]

I don't know. Tesla is a different animal, but I still think there's as good a chance the 3 will be FWD as RWD. Practically every car on the road is FWD. All other EVs are FWD. My V8 Cadillac STS was FWD. I'm not saying I want FWD. I prefer RWD. I'm just saying I think FWD is very possible. The day EVs open up to the general public and not just enthusiasts, you'll see some FWD demand.

 

[WarpedOne]

Practically every car on the road is FWD

He explained exactly and slowly why that is so but people are still confused.
Universe and ...

 

[JRP3]

Tesla is a different animal...

Practically every car on the road is FWD. All other EVs are FWD.

There you go.

 

[richkae]

I am pretty sure Tesla has said multiple times that they don't want to make the regen stronger than it is because it is on the rear wheels. Having the tail drag the car under braking doesn't work as well because the weight shifts to the front wheels and then the rear wheels can lose traction. If the regen came from the front wheels it could be stronger.

More regen means more range ( mostly in the city, but applies everywhere ).

 

[Cosmacelf]

Look at history. How many chariots and wagons were designed with the horses in back? In the winter, do you push your sled up the hill or do you pull it?

At the risk of going ot, horses don't push carts for many more reasons. Push it with what,their heads? With a heavy rigid pole? And then how do you steer? And when the horses spook and take off galloping,the driver gets crushed first. I think you need to think through your arguments a bit more...

 

[PaulusdB]

I am pretty sure Tesla has said multiple times that they don't want to make the regen stronger than it is because it is on the rear wheels. Having the tail drag the car under braking doesn't work as well because the weight shifts to the front wheels and then the rear wheels can lose traction. If the regen came from the front wheels it could be stronger.

More regen means more range ( mostly in the city, but applies everywhere ).

My point, exactly.

 

[roblab]

I don't know. Tesla is a different animal, but I still think there's as good a chance the 3 will be FWD as RWD. Practically every car on the road is FWD. All other EVs are FWD. My V8 Cadillac STS was FWD. I'm not saying I want FWD. I prefer RWD. I'm just saying I think FWD is very possible. The day EVs open up to the general public and not just enthusiasts, you'll see some FWD demand.

The Big Auto companies went with front wheel drive *because it was cheap*. They could get rid of the drive shaft and the differential at the rear. Sure, they could now capitalize on the weight being over the drive wheels, but that was just accidental. They also got things like torque steer, which can make you lose it when entering traffic. But, hey, they saved a few dollars putting the engine and tranny and differential all up front with no weight on the rear.

Big auto companies have never worried about weight distribution or traction. For proof, look at all pick up trucks. Rear Wheel Drive, no weight on the drive wheels, horrible handling, but big profit, so let's build em. Cars are built for one reason: To make a profit. Tesla builds cars to save the world. There's a huge difference, a disconnect here. Oil and Auto can never figure this out.

Rear wheel drive is recognized as giving better driving characteristics. Since it costs the same for front or rear, and there is no improvement in traction with the weight balanced, there is no reason to push for front wheel drive. Tesla is not constrained with a large bulky mass in the front and reduced traction in the rear due to unequal distribution of weight. Wherever they put it in the Model 3, believe me, it will be right, not based on some accountant's figures, but on a highly intelligent team of engineers' minute calculations. You cannot second guess that. GM, Toyota, BMW are 5 to 10 years behind Tesla at Tesla's first move. Don't think that just because "all other cars" doing it one way, that Tesla will follow suit, if there is a better way.

I would also like to point out that rules for hood latches make them harder to open that rear hatches. Front storage is not as convenient to use because of the latch and manual closing, which I believe is mandated.

I would also like to point out that Tesla does not have any access cover for the motor. There is nothing you can do to maintain a motor, unlike a gas engine which needs repairs, parts, and cleaning. All gas engines have access. Tesla does not. And remember that the drive unit is modular and can be changed out in a few hours, unlike any gas engine and drive train. As you say, Tesla is a different animal. I would say they are from an entirely different planet. There is nothing in a Tesla that can be compared to a gas car. It's better. In every way.

I personally feel that since RWD is better for nearly all driving situations, the Model 3 will be RWD.

 

[JST]

The Big Auto companies went with front wheel drive *because it was cheap*. They could get rid of the drive shaft and the differential at the rear. Sure, they could now capitalize on the weight being over the drive wheels, but that was just accidental. They also got things like torque steer, which can make you lose it when entering traffic. But, hey, they saved a few dollars putting the engine and tranny and differential all up front with no weight on the rear.

Big auto companies have never worried about weight distribution or traction. For proof, look at all pick up trucks. Rear Wheel Drive, no weight on the drive wheels, horrible handling, but big profit, so let's build em. Cars are built for one reason: To make a profit. Tesla builds cars to save the world. There's a huge difference, a disconnect here. Oil and Auto can never figure this out.

Rear wheel drive is recognized as giving better driving characteristics. Since it costs the same for front or rear, and there is no improvement in traction with the weight balanced, there is no reason to push for front wheel drive. Tesla is not constrained with a large bulky mass in the front and reduced traction in the rear due to unequal distribution of weight. Wherever they put it in the Model 3, believe me, it will be right, not based on some accountant's figures, but on a highly intelligent team of engineers' minute calculations. You cannot second guess that. GM, Toyota, BMW are 5 to 10 years behind Tesla at Tesla's first move. Don't think that just because "all other cars" doing it one way, that Tesla will follow suit, if there is a better way.

I would also like to point out that rules for hood latches make them harder to open that rear hatches. Front storage is not as convenient to use because of the latch and manual closing, which I believe is mandated.

I would also like to point out that Tesla does not have any access cover for the motor. There is nothing you can do to maintain a motor, unlike a gas engine which needs repairs, parts, and cleaning. All gas engines have access. Tesla does not. And remember that the drive unit is modular and can be changed out in a few hours, unlike any gas engine and drive train. As you say, Tesla is a different animal. I would say they are from an entirely different planet. There is nothing in a Tesla that can be compared to a gas car. It's better. In every way.

I personally feel that since RWD is better for nearly all driving situations, the Model 3 will be RWD.

FWD didn't just win for mainstream autos because it is cheaper. It also won because it is more efficient in terms of packaging than the Panhard system (i.e., engine in front, drive wheels in back). And while you can get some of the same packaging and traction benefits in a gas car by making the car RWD and putting the engine and transmission behind the rear axle (see, e.g., VW Beetle, Tatra, Tucker, Corvair, 911, Renault Alpine, Fiat ur500, Smart, etc.), it is also true that all else equal a FWD/front engine car has more forgiving handling characteristics than a RWD/rear engine car. Note that doesn't mean better driving characteristics--just more forgiving. If your Aunt Nellie has never practiced spin recovery, you don't want her suddenly encountering lift-throttle oversteer when she takes a corner too hot and panics by pulling her foot off the gas. A FWD car won't do that--it will just merrily push it's way off the road, and will respond to a lift by tightening the line (again, generally).

Pickup trucks are built with the Panhard system because it makes sense to do so. If you put the engine in the back you lose cargo space. If you drive the front wheels then you lose traction when you load up the bed. I don't know why people *buy* pickup trucks when they don't need to haul things, but I understand why they are built they way they're built.

 

[strider]

I think there is good reason to suspect that the Model 3 might be front wheel drive (hopefully with an AWD option as well). FWD generally is safer for sloppy drivers (safer and less frightening to understeer than oversteer). More importantly, there are lots of people in the midwest and possibly elsewhere as well that believe strongly that front wheel drive is safer and much better in winter driving conditions. I've heard it countless times in the midwest from lots of different people. True or not, it's what lots of people want.

As much as people say that the Model 3 is the "mass-market car" you need to remember that they are not talking about Camry and Accord drivers here. Tesla has been consistent and unwavering by saying that the target for Model 3 is the BMW 3-series. That is a RWD sport sedan. So I will modify your your above statement to read, there are lots of people that believe strongly that sport sedans must be RWD (or AWD). True or not, it's what lots of people want. So Model 3 will absolutely not be FWD because everyone will laugh at them.

We are easily 15 years away before people will be cross-shopping Teslas and Camrys/Accords.

 

[Red Sage]

The Tesla Model ☰ will not be front wheel drive. It is meant to compete against the BMW 3-Series. There is no front wheel drive version of the BMW 3-Series. There is an all wheel drive version of the BMW 3-Series, known as xDrive. Thus, there will be a rear wheel drive Model ☰ and a dual motor all wheel drive version as well.

 

[David_Cary]

I personally think the 3 will compete with Accord and Camry shoppers. The goal is not to emulate the 3 series - at least I didn't think so. What I got was that pricing would be similar.

But this is where some of the disagreement comes from. FWD makes sense if you are competing with an Accord. And at $35k base, you certainly can compete. I do think in another few years, people can look at $10000 in gas over 6 years ownership or so and factor that in. Everyone - no, but lots of people.

I have enough money for an S but there is an Accord in our driveway. My wife would prefer FWD. Put her in the lift-throttle oversteer camp. She certainly doesn't benefit from weight transfer to the rear in hard acceleration. She is an average driver. The average 3 series driver probably doesn't care or notice either. Yes - enthusiasts drive the street creed issue.

The motor may be air cooled. I admit to not knowing the technical issues here. But I do know that air cooled is cheaper and you have got to cut some money somewhere. I see it all the time on these 3 threads. There are some that expect 80% of an S at 50% of the cost. You have to try and simplify things to make the price point.

 

[Red Sage]

We are easily 15 years away before people will be cross-shopping Teslas and Camrys/Accords.

Three years from now 'independent franchised dealerships' will notice that their best selling sedans are taking a bit longer to sell than they are used to... They will find that people are willing to wait three, six, or nine months to get a custom car they ordered over the internet, instead of buying whatever they can find among the lot inventory.

I believe that well informed individuals, who might ordinarily purchase a new Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Chevrolet Malibu, or Ford Fusion, will test drive, and then decide to buy the Tesla Model ☰. Once they run the numbers, they'll determine that over five-to-eight years, the minimal difference in cost between a high end version of those cars and a Model ☰ would allow them to move upmarket. Each of them that buys, will tell two Friends or Family members... They'll go test drive too.

This is similar to those who realized that if they were in the market for a $40,000-to-$50,000 vehicle, they could still purchase a Tesla Model S and spend about the same amount of money over the course of ownership. Think in terms of the people who decide to purchase a Toyota Avalon XLE, because they realize the Lexus ES 350 is basically the same car, with different badges and slightly different styling. If they saw a compelling reason to trade up, they would. I expect the Tesla Model ☰ will be that compelling force, much sooner than anyone realizes.