Wh/km (or mi) / range grossly mis-advertised, if not fraudulent... srsly.

[SageBrush]

I was talking about preheating the battery after sitting outside in the cold. Not the preconditioning for charge. We all know that a battery can get cold sometimes below 0C when it sits long time in cold weather and I was referring to that situation. Tesla Bjorn had a video about preheating the Tesla plugged on L1, unplugged and plugged on a L2.

He was telling you that a Tesla warms up the pack to ~ 5C in usual "pre-conditioning,' not related to Supercharger preparation. I don't doubt that SK has average ambient below 5C (quite a bit lower, actually), but for the majority of 4 season climates the ambient daily average does not result in pack heating.

I remember experiencing extensive pack heating in my Prius Prime in Colorado. A cold spell brought ambient down to -15F (-26C) for over a day. That car was not going anywhere until it heated up the pack

 

[voldar]

Yes, that was what I was talking sbout too.

When preconditioning the var heats the battery quite fast in a dual motor.

Yes, I saw that.
Also, I tested here the "preconditioning battery to charge".

 

[voldar]

He was telling you that a Tesla warms up the pack to ~ 5C in usual "pre-conditioning,' not related to Supercharger preparation.

In my Tesla I saw average of 10C, when the car is plugged and charging.
Usually min cell temp 8-9C, and max cel temp 11-12C.

 

[SageBrush]

In my Tesla I saw average of 10C, when the car is plugged and charging.
Usually min cell temp 8-9C, and max cel temp 11-12C.

Sure, but did the car use the motor inefficient mode to heat the pack ?

 

[voldar]

Sure, but did the car use the motor inefficient mode to heat the pack ?

I don’t have an idea. Sorry, I am not sure how to check this. I use Stats app to preheat the battery : I have configured my Tesla to charge to 70% and I use Stats to charge 5% more in the morning, right before I leave home. If during charging is using the motor in an inefficient mode to heat the pack, I have no idea.

 

[chdlmc]

You are mixing things up here

The preconditioning for a charge, where the battery need > +40C takes longer time. In average the car can heat the battery with 1C per minute, for a 3/Y dual motor. (RWD is slower), Plaid trimotor could be faster. To plan for a supercharging session wintertime one hour should be given. (cell temp target for supercharger V3 is 48C for mu M3P and the MSP.)

During a preconditioning for departure in cold climate where the battery has been out in low tmeperatures a whole day the battery heater only heats the cell temp tp about 5C. ( stops battery heat at 4.25C on my Plaid and did stop it at aorund 5C on my M3P). If the cell temp is 5C or more, no battery heating is performed.

On this picture the car was out for the whole day at about -16C (about a few F's). The most common time for the battery heater to run for me is about 3-15mins, but only when it is so co9lt that the cell temp actually is below 5C otherwise the battery heating will not run.

View attachment 1004501

More useful info thank you.

Often at home, my lows are around 20-35F (-6 to 2 C). For a dual motor MYLR, 15 minutes would be enough to get my battery from (assumed ambient) -6/20F up to 5C/41F if the heating rate is 1C/min.

I’m also doing short drives most often in winter months, so the battery preheating and climate consumption will lower my wh/mi numbers.

Are there any issues with operating with a cold battery? What if I have to leave short notice and don’t precondition, and battery is at -2C / 29F. Any durability or maintenance concerns? I’ve heard of you try to supercharge before the car can fully precondition, it simply slows your charging rate but there’s no real issue with that besides the time involved.

 

[AAKEE]

More useful info thank you.

Often at home, my lows are around 20-35F (-6 to 2 C). For a dual motor MYLR, 15 minutes would be enough to get my battery from (assumed ambient) -6/20F up to 5C/41F if the heating rate is 1C/min.

I’m also doing short drives most often in winter months, so the battery preheating and climate consumption will lower my wh/mi numbers.

Are there any issues with operating with a cold battery? What if I have to leave short notice and don’t precondition, and battery is at -2C / 29F.

Not reaaly issues.

A cold battery will have higher cyclic degradation. But cyclic degradation is anyway low, and short drives gives small cycles which is good. Also short drives often means low power usage which also is good. It would be good to not do full power acccelerations with a cold battery.

I sometimes drive with a cold battery due to not knowing exactly when its time to leave.
I do not worry for this, but I drive without using high power.

Any durability or maintenance concerns? I’ve heard of you try to supercharge before the car can fully precondition, it simply slows your charging rate but there’s no real issue with that besides the time involved.

Its probably no ”issue” but for lithium plating that is the worst thing for battery wear with supercharging, preheating the battery to 40C or more is the best countermeasure.

We do not have all the data, only Tesla have that, but I always precondition completely whenever it is possible before a supercharging session.

 

[SageBrush]

Its probably no ”issue” but for lithium plating that is the worst thing for battery wear

I also think about Li plating related to supercharging, and even during L2 because my pack can get down to -5C and I have 10 kW charging at home. My solution is to not charge over 70% SoC on those days

 

[AAKEE]

I also think about Li plating related to supercharging, and even during L2 because my pack can get down to -5C and I have 10 kW charging at home. My solution is to not charge over 70% SoC on those days

Tesla never starts the charge until the battery is above freezing.
Tesla warms the battery before the charging commences, in my M3P it held the battery at about 7-8C during a 2-3kW charging session with the UMC.

For my Plaid its about 5C for the same charging in cold.

So the risk for lithium plating most probably is mitigated by this.

Here’s a chart from a research report.
Its drawed a little strange, it could be interpretended as the total wear is the same (its not), but we should look at the temperatures in combination with the charge power, 1C which compares to about 75-80kW on a model 3/Y LR/P.

There is quite some research on this, but the pictures mostly newer paints the picture clear with only one picture.
The batteries are more sensitive at higher SOC.

Supercharging with a cold battery do not reduce the charge power very much.
I did get full power 150kW minus battery heat so ~ 140kW at ~20% SOC and cell temp ~12C at a SuC V2 when I had to charge without any preconditioning once.
Was not a nice feeling reading 140kW or so with a cold batt.

(T’was freezing -30C and the car changed the estimated SOC at arrival at home just when passing the (last and only) SuC station from a few percent to “maximum speed limited to reach destination”. Was not worth risking getting into trouble with the whole family on board.)

 

[KoenMertens]

Concerns about consumption and range. Can anyone help me analyse these figures please?

I recently did a trip with the family :

• Model Y Long Range
• 100% charged
• outside temperature 12°C
• Family : 2 adults and 2 smaller children
• 186 km one way. We had something small to eat nearby and drove 385 km there and back (incl stops Supercharger).
• Mainly motorway. Fines are high here, I drive at the max permitted speed of 120 km/h (cruise control).

• During the outward journey we used the Supercharger and charged 80 km (the number of kWh is not mentioned, this is part of the free 150 km).
• The car indicated that we would not get home without recharging. So on the way back, we recharged
  • the remaining 70km of the free 150 km AND
  • 34 kWh.
• We arrived home with a battery charge of 43%.

I was told to take about 80-75% of the indicator as range. So 533 x 75% = 400 km. I had hoped that I would be able to cover less than 400 km on a full (100%) charge without any problem.

How should I interpret these figures?

• Fully charged : 533 km x 75% = 400 km
• Supercharged : 80 km + 70 km + 34 kWh.
  • Tesla claims an average consumption of 17 kWh over 100 km. So that 34 kWh adds up to 200 km.

With the above, I then think I can do 400 + 80 + 70 + 200 (= 750km).

How am I wrong? Can someone please help me on my way?

 

[Bouba]

Concerns about consumption and range. Can anyone help me analyse these figures please?

I recently did a trip with the family :

• Model Y Long Range
• 100% charged
• outside temperature 12°C
• Family : 2 adults and 2 smaller children
• 186 km one way. We had something small to eat nearby and drove 385 km there and back (incl stops Supercharger).
• Mainly motorway. Fines are high here, I drive at the max permitted speed of 120 km/h (cruise control).

• During the outward journey we used the Supercharger and charged 80 km (the number of kWh is not mentioned, this is part of the free 150 km).
• The car indicated that we would not get home without recharging. So on the way back, we recharged
  • the remaining 70km of the free 150 km AND
  • 34 kWh.
• We arrived home with a battery charge of 43%.

I was told to take about 80-75% of the indicator as range. So 533 x 75% = 400 km. I had hoped that I would be able to cover less than 400 km on a full (100%) charge without any problem.

How should I interpret these figures?

• Fully charged : 533 km x 75% = 400 km
• Supercharged : 80 km + 70 km + 34 kWh.
  • Tesla claims an average consumption of 17 kWh over 100 km. So that 34 kWh adds up to 200 km.

With the above, I then think I can do 400 + 80 + 70 + 200 (= 750km).

How am I wrong? Can someone please help me on my way?

Don’t forget to subtract the 43%

 

[Need]

Concerns about consumption and range. Can anyone help me analyse these figures please?

I recently did a trip with the family :

• Model Y Long Range
• 100% charged
• outside temperature 12°C
• Family : 2 adults and 2 smaller children
• 186 km one way. We had something small to eat nearby and drove 385 km there and back (incl stops Supercharger).
• Mainly motorway. Fines are high here, I drive at the max permitted speed of 120 km/h (cruise control).

• During the outward journey we used the Supercharger and charged 80 km (the number of kWh is not mentioned, this is part of the free 150 km).
• The car indicated that we would not get home without recharging. So on the way back, we recharged
  • the remaining 70km of the free 150 km AND
  • 34 kWh.
• We arrived home with a battery charge of 43%.

I was told to take about 80-75% of the indicator as range. So 533 x 75% = 400 km. I had hoped that I would be able to cover less than 400 km on a full (100%) charge without any problem.

How should I interpret these figures?

• Fully charged : 533 km x 75% = 400 km
• Supercharged : 80 km + 70 km + 34 kWh.
  • Tesla claims an average consumption of 17 kWh over 100 km. So that 34 kWh adds up to 200 km.

With the above, I then think I can do 400 + 80 + 70 + 200 (= 750km).

How am I wrong? Can someone please help me on my way?

You drove: 385km
You charged: 533km + 350km = 883km
You have 43% left when you got home

% of actual/indicated range = (385 / (883 * 0.57)) * 100% = 76.49%

 

[KoenMertens]

You drove: 385km
You charged: 533km + 350km = 883km
You have 43% left when you got home

% of actual/indicated range = (385 / (883 * 0.57)) * 100% = 76.49%

Hello Need,

Thank you for helping me analyze the numbers. What is your thought about the actual/indicated range of 76,5%. Is this within expectations? How would it change over time with battery degradation? Would it be significantly different in warmer weather?

I still need to get used to the fact that for a simple 2h trip, I need to charge in order to get back.

 

[Bouba]

Hello Need,

Thank you for helping me analyze the numbers. What is your thought about the actual/indicated range of 76,5%. Is this within expectations? How would it change over time with battery degradation? Would it be significantly different in warmer weather?

I still need to get used to the fact that for a simple 2h trip, I need to charge in order to get back.

You don’t need to charge during a two hour trip in a Long Range....but if it’s two hours there and two hours back then you need to charge

 

[Need]

Hello Need,

Thank you for helping me analyze the numbers. What is your thought about the actual/indicated range of 76,5%. Is this within expectations? How would it change over time with battery degradation? Would it be significantly different in warmer weather?

I still need to get used to the fact that for a simple 2h trip, I need to charge in order to get back.

I have 3 Tesla and yes, the actual range sounds right. I am in Southern California. Currently it is winter and temperature is around mid 40's to mid 50's F (around 7 to 12 degrees C). My percent is around 80% if I am driving alone. I drive around 80 mph though, so it is quite a bit faster than the speed that Tesla says to get the stated range which is around 65 mph. I think if I drive 65 mph, by myself (no extra weight), keep climate control minimum, outside temperature around 85 degrees, on a relatively flat highway, I could probably get around 90% to 95%. Getting 100% range is probably a dream... and not too practical.

Since you did 186km one way, I guess you meant a 2 hour one way trip. Like @Bouba said above, you don't need to charge for a 2 hour trip, you will need to charge for a 4 hours round trip. Yeah if you are in an ICE car, you can easily do the whole trip in one fill up, but very few EV could do that same trip without charging.

 

[Steve446]

Concerns about consumption and range. Can anyone help me analyse these figures please?

I recently did a trip with the family :

• Model Y Long Range
• 100% charged
• outside temperature 12°C
• Family : 2 adults and 2 smaller children
• 186 km one way. We had something small to eat nearby and drove 385 km there and back (incl stops Supercharger).
• Mainly motorway. Fines are high here, I drive at the max permitted speed of 120 km/h (cruise control).

• During the outward journey we used the Supercharger and charged 80 km (the number of kWh is not mentioned, this is part of the free 150 km).
• The car indicated that we would not get home without recharging. So on the way back, we recharged
  • the remaining 70km of the free 150 km AND
  • 34 kWh.
• We arrived home with a battery charge of 43%.

I was told to take about 80-75% of the indicator as range. So 533 x 75% = 400 km. I had hoped that I would be able to cover less than 400 km on a full (100%) charge without any problem.

How should I interpret these figures?

• Fully charged : 533 km x 75% = 400 km
• Supercharged : 80 km + 70 km + 34 kWh.
  • Tesla claims an average consumption of 17 kWh over 100 km. So that 34 kWh adds up to 200 km.

With the above, I then think I can do 400 + 80 + 70 + 200 (= 750km).

How am I wrong? Can someone please help me on my way?

It's hard to be very clear for range and consumption when you try to mix displayed range and kWh charged - amongst other possible errors such as capacity and phantom drain etc there are a lot of rounding errors which can make your calculation inaccurate.

You might be better approaching your calculation from a different perspective as I illustrate below. This approach can then be used to estimate your car's range under different circumstances and consumption rates.

For the purpose of my calculation I assume your car has the 78.1 kWh LG M50 battery. with an EPA constant of around 140 Wh/km? (Right or wrong?)

Using first principles and based on what you say in your post doesn't for me give a sensible answer (see my original calculation below the *****). The estimation for consumption is 253Wh/km which seems quite high (comparing it to my M3LR which I agree is not the same).

Did I understand your calculation correctly? Could it be that the total kWh you added is 34 (and not 150km+34 kWh)? If the calculation is done that way the result appears as below -

with a 34 kWh charge you would have had about the following available, 74.5+34=108.5
- battery level on return home, 0.43 x 74.5= 32 kWh.
- so in this case you actually used 108.5 - 32=76.5 kWh.
- with that consumption your Wh/km would have been (76.5/385) x1000 = 198 Wh/km.

That value would fit better, at least for me I could be totally wrong. Anyway the aim is only to illustrate an alternative for how to approach the calculation. There are also better battery wizards on the forum who could help you here (@AAKEE and @AlanSubie4Life).

****************************************************************************************************************************
Original first principles calculation based on what you said:
Fully charged = (0.955 x 78.1 kWh)= 74.5 kWh @ 100% displayed charge (ie full capacity of 78.1 - 3.5 kWh bottom end buffer of 4.5%).
You added:
- 150 km displayed = ~21 kWh (150 x 0.140 Wh/km), and,
- 34 kWh
So you started with 74.5 and during your trip added 55 kWh (21+34) = 129.5 kWh total kWh available (other losses not accounted for)
You ended your trip with 43% battery = 0.43 x 74.5= 32 kWh available.
You therefore used 129.5 - 32 = 97.5 kWh.
Your trip was 385 km which corresponds to (97.5/385) x 1000 = 253 Wh/km.

 

[KoenMertens]

I have made up my mind. For me, Tesla (or EVs in general) is not worth it.

Call me stubborn not not willing to change, but the ease of a good old diesel car is just what I want. No need to organize my life around a car and its limited range. You can just fuel everywhere in a few minutes and drive about 1.000 km.

I'm not talking about good or bad. Electric cars are just not for me, how my life is organized and what I expect from a car (a tool that makes my life easier).

You don’t need to charge during a two hour trip in a Long Range....but if it’s two hours there and two hours back then you need to charge

I personally find little joy in the fact that if I drive 180 km to get to my destination, I need to start calculating whether or not I can still drive around town to go to a restaurant and how far the next super charger might be. So technically you are right, "You don’t need to charge during a two hour trip in a Long Range", but at the destination, you cannot just relax and do something unexpected either. The tool is not making my life easier, I need to adapt to the limitations of a tool.


If you have a regular life (e.g. commuting every day the same route) and do occasionally longer trips, I think EVs are great.

I work in the events industry, irregular hours, often late at night. I need to drive up to 3 hours one way and I have no need to sit and wait in a car at night just because it needs to charge. After my work, I just want to go home without loosing time.

Unfortunately, Tesla dropped his price significantly, so selling it without a big loss will be difficult.

 

[Bouba]

I have made up my mind. For me, Tesla (or EVs in general) is not worth it.

Call me stubborn not not willing to change, but the ease of a good old diesel car is just what I want. No need to organize my life around a car and its limited range. You can just fuel everywhere in a few minutes and drive about 1.000 km.

I'm not talking about good or bad. Electric cars are just not for me, how my life is organized and what I expect from a car (a tool that makes my life easier).



I personally find little joy in the fact that if I drive 180 km to get to my destination, I need to start calculating whether or not I can still drive around town to go to a restaurant and how far the next super charger might be. So technically you are right, "You don’t need to charge during a two hour trip in a Long Range", but at the destination, you cannot just relax and do something unexpected either. The tool is not making my life easier, I need to adapt to the limitations of a tool.


If you have a regular life (e.g. commuting every day the same route) and do occasionally longer trips, I think EVs are great.

I work in the events industry, irregular hours, often late at night. I need to drive up to 3 hours one way and I have no need to sit and wait in a car at night just because it needs to charge. After my work, I just want to go home without loosing time.

Unfortunately, Tesla dropped his price significantly, so selling it without a big loss will be difficult.

There is no doubt that we do organize our lives around the car.....but we are nerds....that’s why we are on this forum. Sensible people come in, ask a question...then leave. We hang around trying to glean as much knowledge as possible. But so what...nerds are cool....and I enjoy Teslaring around

 

[DuncanM]

I have made up my mind. For me, Tesla (or EVs in general) is not worth it.

Call me stubborn not not willing to change, but the ease of a good old diesel car is just what I want. No need to organize my life around a car and its limited range. You can just fuel everywhere in a few minutes and drive about 1.000 km.

I'm not talking about good or bad. Electric cars are just not for me, how my life is organized and what I expect from a car (a tool that makes my life easier).



I personally find little joy in the fact that if I drive 180 km to get to my destination, I need to start calculating whether or not I can still drive around town to go to a restaurant and how far the next super charger might be. So technically you are right, "You don’t need to charge during a two hour trip in a Long Range", but at the destination, you cannot just relax and do something unexpected either. The tool is not making my life easier, I need to adapt to the limitations of a tool.


If you have a regular life (e.g. commuting every day the same route) and do occasionally longer trips, I think EVs are great.

I work in the events industry, irregular hours, often late at night. I need to drive up to 3 hours one way and I have no need to sit and wait in a car at night just because it needs to charge. After my work, I just want to go home without loosing time.

Unfortunately, Tesla dropped his price significantly, so selling it without a big loss will be difficult.

At 120kmh and 180km driven you'll have lots of range remaining to drive around town as you'll arrive at about 40-50% SOC. In the EU you can use almost any Tesla or non-Tesla DCFC to charge your car and many hotels and restaurants will have AC charging stations, so you can eat and charge at the same time..

On your trip, you needed to charge for 5-10 minutes to get back home again (but you arrived with 43% so you charged much longer than needed) or about the same time as a stop to use the toilet. Given that you have a family, you'll probably have to do a washroom stop anyways during the trip and that's when you charge the car. I've made a trip across Canada and back in my M3 and back and forth to Arizona (3200km each way) several times and many other trips longer than the drive you did, Once you get used to combining washroom stops and meals with charging stops, then you'll find that there's little difference between ICE and EVs cars in the time taken to make the trip.

 

[DuncanM]

I have made up my mind. For me, Tesla (or EVs in general) is not worth it.

Call me stubborn not not willing to change, but the ease of a good old diesel car is just what I want. No need to organize my life around a car and its limited range. You can just fuel everywhere in a few minutes and drive about 1.000 km.

I'm not talking about good or bad. Electric cars are just not for me, how my life is organized and what I expect from a car (a tool that makes my life easier).



I personally find little joy in the fact that if I drive 180 km to get to my destination, I need to start calculating whether or not I can still drive around town to go to a restaurant and how far the next super charger might be. So technically you are right, "You don’t need to charge during a two hour trip in a Long Range", but at the destination, you cannot just relax and do something unexpected either. The tool is not making my life easier, I need to adapt to the limitations of a tool.


If you have a regular life (e.g. commuting every day the same route) and do occasionally longer trips, I think EVs are great.

I work in the events industry, irregular hours, often late at night. I need to drive up to 3 hours one way and I have no need to sit and wait in a car at night just because it needs to charge. After my work, I just want to go home without loosing time.

Unfortunately, Tesla dropped his price significantly, so selling it without a big loss will be difficult.

3 hours one way and back probably means that you'll need a washroom stop along the way (and there's probably charging at the event), so combine that with a charging stop and no time lost. It's not about adapting to the car but learning how to use it efficiently.