Tesla's rollout of high-power wall chargers - where are they?

[JohnQ]

@ItsNotAboutTheMoney - imagine a world where every car manufacturer owned their own gas stations, and to fill a GM car you'd need to find a GM station, and to fill a Ford car you'd need a Ford station. Adapters would be available, but you'd need to carry a trunk full of nozzles to make it work.

This is the road Tesla is going down for L2. The purpose of industry standards is to avoid this type of mess, prevent confusion and encourage consumer adoption. The J1772 plug isn't perfect, but it works with all EVs (including Model S) and can be just as fast as an HPWC.

If we want the EV industry to take off, we need common standards. Starting a standards war over L2 isn't helping.

The 'contention' argument will be seen as elitist by other EV owners. It send the message that "your Leaf isn't good enough to charge at my hotel."

This is a bigger issue than Roadsters, having multiple standards for L2 will be an industry wide problem and slow down EV adoption.

In the general case I agree regarding standards but in this specific case I don't. Having 2 standards for plugs won't require a trunk full of adapters. Beta and VHS fought it out, Blue Ray and HD, Laser Discs came and went. The best solution doesn't always win but it's easiest to challenge an incumbent early in the process. If there are enough HPWCs with "Tesla" nozzles then there will be a demand for an adapter to allow other vehicles to charge there. If there's never enough critical mass then it will die out. Inefficient in the short term, more efficient in the long term. That's how the winners and losers get sorted out.

 

[jdbob]

Having 2 standards for plugs won't require a trunk full of adapters.

That reminded me of Bjørn's trunk (or is it frunk) full of adapters.

 

[jerry33]

Would it it be perhaps better to install 70A J1772 stations labeled "Courtesy of Tesla" to spread the goodwill? Single-charger MS will still only charge at 40A anyway. While there is clearly a difference for dual-charger equipped cars, installing "free" 70A L2 charging might create a groundswell of support for adoption of 70A L2 as the new normal. And it's still a heck of a lot faster than charging at a 30A limited J1772 station. .

While a nice idea, if you look at the hotel locations, most have a grand total of one. I'd agree if there were at least ten, then you'd have a chance that it wouldn't be taken by some other car, but one with a J1722 you chances of finding it free are very slim.

 

[Zarwin]

While a nice idea, if you look at the hotel locations, most have a grand total of one. I'd agree if there were at least ten, then you'd have a chance that it wouldn't be taken by some other car, but one with a J1722 you chances of finding it free are very slim.

And its not just that it would be taken by some other car that needed it, but rather the Plug-in Prius that charges for an hour and cuts off, but stays in the space all damn day. I have run into this problem at work quite a number of times with the 4 to 1 ratio of plug-in vehicles to plugs. I hate to deny a Leaf a critical need since they have such limited range (I had one for over 2 years), but I could definitely see an issue where short range hybrids like a Plug-in Prius block spots just because they have a plug. Hey wait, was this Toyota's plan all along!?

 

[mibaro2]

While people in this thread may complain that Tesla is rolling out a proprietary charger (btw, chademo units are also proprietary), I would ask what the other car companies are doing...Is Nissan and Toyota offering hotels similar incentives to install chargers? If so, then it would make sense for the automakers to offer a combined unit to satisfy all EV needs.
However, I don't think the other EV players are helping to build up the charging infrastructure as aggressively as Tesla is doing it.
I agree that it would be nice to have one standard, but no one seems to want to put the effort in building the infrastructure except Tesla.

 

[scaesare]

While people in this thread may complain that Tesla is rolling out a proprietary charger (btw, chademo units are also proprietary), I would ask what the other car companies are doing...Is Nissan and Toyota offering hotels similar incentives to install chargers? If so, then it would make sense for the automakers to offer a combined unit to satisfy all EV needs.
However, I don't think the other EV players are helping to build up the charging infrastructure as aggressively as Tesla is doing it.
I agree that it would be nice to have one standard, but no one seems to want to put the effort in building the infrastructure except Tesla.

Bingo.

And, as is often the case with defacto standards, it takes a significant push by a player to break the logjam and solidify support around one implementation.

It so happens that it appears that Tesla's connector standard is one that I find rather elegant, so if everybody finally adopted theirs I'd be fine with that. But whatever the outcome, Tesla has done more to attempt develop the charging landscape (at least in N.A.) single-handedly in the last year than all of the other players combined in the last decade.

 

[Larry Chanin]

What I am finding is that a lot of these HPWCs listed at hotels anyway are "for customers only" so they are not exactly free. I can understand why they are doing it, but it's not as convenient as a supercharger where there is no obligation to use the host's services. It is a charging desert in northern Wisconsin. The only charger in the area is the HPWC at the Marriott hotel in Wausau, which is perfectly on my way up north but not my destination.

Of course they're for customers only, that's the point of the program. It's called "destination charging" for a reason. Hotels get free or discounted HPWCs and install them to entice you to make that hotel your destination rather than another one. It's not meant to be a substitute for a supercharger.

On the subject of charging a fee or offering the service to overnight guests only, Tesla's position is evolving on this point. Tesla would rather that the charging be free, but they are not going to insist at this time to be part of the Destination Charging Program. It is fair to say that today this issue is determined by the host location. Many of these locations are luxury hotels/resorts and the HPWCs are incorporated into the valet operations which normally have fees. There may or may not be a charge for valet service. Some hotels will waive the valet fees if a visitor is dining at one of their restaurants and gets their ticket validated.

I agree with TexasEV that it is not unreasonable for a host location to reserve the free chargers for overnight guests or restaurant patrons. The host did after all invest in the installation and maintenance.

Larry

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@ItsNotAboutTheMoney - imagine a world where every car manufacturer owned their own gas stations, and to fill a GM car you'd need to find a GM station, and to fill a Ford car you'd need a Ford station. Adapters would be available, but you'd need to carry a trunk full of nozzles to make it work.

This is the road Tesla is going down for L2. The purpose of industry standards is to avoid this type of mess, prevent confusion and encourage consumer adoption. The J1772 plug isn't perfect, but it works with all EVs (including Model S) and can be just as fast as an HPWC.

If we want the EV industry to take off, we need common standards. Starting a standards war over L2 isn't helping.

The 'contention' argument will be seen as elitist by other EV owners. It send the message that "your Leaf isn't good enough to charge at my hotel."

This is a bigger issue than Roadsters, having multiple standards for L2 will be an industry wide problem and slow down EV adoption.

We will have a common standard. Have a little patience. It will be the Tesla connector. :wink:

[...]

If Tesla is successful in building the Gigafactory and producing hundreds of thousands of Model IIIs a year, year after year, the Tesla charging connector will become the defacto standard. Its no secret that Tesla relaxed its patents enforcement to facilitate this eventual industry switch.

As was pointed out it is not Elon's strategy to adopt other car manufacturers' inferior charging standard, but rather to induce them to switch to Tesla's.

With this longer range strategy as background, it is logical that the Tesla Destination Charging Program starts with providing donated or discounted Tesla High Power Wall Connectors. It supports the goal of promoting the Tesla standard and it is half the cost of a comparable 80 amp J1772 charging station. However, Tesla project management recognizes that there are other EVs on the roads and it is their practice to recommend to host locations to install "universal" charging stations along with the Tesla HPWCs. It is really the host location's call and Tesla should not be criticized if the location elects to only install HPWCs.

As I see Elon's overarching strategy it is to push the automotive industry to reluctantly be forced to produce practical EVs by continuing to build compelling Teslas that take marketshare from conventional gasoline vehicles. Its a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach. Elon's strategy is NOT to subsidize other inferior designs, whether it be cars or charging infracture. [...] Elon's objective will be achieved when others start producing legitimate long range EVs. When that happens those manufacturers would be very unwise not to switch to Tesla's charging standard, which incorporates a high performance port capable of both Level 2 and Level 3 charging.

In the meantime it would be counter to Tesla's long range strategy and well being to promote other standards over its own.

Larry

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I'm not sure what I think of this. On one hand, additional destination charging is great. But I wonder if it makes Tesla appear "elitist" in the eyes of the public & especially other EV owners?

The Model S and X are selling so well because of this elite image on the part of the the public. There is a reason for it, Tesla's cars and charging infrastructure are unequaled.

Standing out from the common place is not going to hurt Tesla. A little EV envy is not a bad thing. :wink:

Larry