I agree....those vertical supports are massive. I think there is some confusion about what the crane might carry. I suspect opening a casting facility in California is not the best idea due to environmental and permitting constraints, although those high voltage insulators are curiously large for a "normal" factory. Also, any castings would be small and not require a crane to move them or their molds. Moving the big heavy press dies that are used to form body panels are a more likely use for a crane. Also, even though Tesla likes to keep manufacturing in-house as much as possible, there is almost no pool of die-making talent left anywhere in the US. Still better to go overseas for die manufacturing these days.
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Here's a quote from Gilbert Passin back in 2011. I doubt if anything has happened to change his mind now. On the contrary the increased scale of operations will probably strengthen this opinion.
For some background here's the job description of Chad Smith, Manager - Tool & Die Operations at Tesla.
Tesla has no problem poaching other talent both here and overseas. I don't see why they wouldn't attract talent from their die build sources, especially those in the US.
Again the point here is that dies are critical to Tesla's overall operation now and when three vehicles are in production with numbers running into the 100s of thousands per year it will be even more critical. It would seem only prudent that Tesla would take steps to augment their die build sources with in-house capabilities.
Larry
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jhm
Well-Known Member
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
It's basically molding with hard metals i molten form. You pour liquid hot metal in to a mold and let it cool off - take out a metal shape from the mold. Think motor parts and mechanical parts of the cars but not the bodies (Tesla uses aliminum sheets that are stamped in to shape, not die cast).
cpa
Active Member
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
This is taking us somewhat off-topic.
The point is that the CNC machining equipment described by the original poster, among other things, can be used to manufacture Tesla's stamping dies which for the most part are currently being provided from foreign suppliers.
Larry
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Yes this is true.
Elon's genius' is that he wants to make the machine that makes the machine. An engineering approach to manufacturing.
Krugerrand
Meow
That doesn't make sense. Cast wouldn't typically be strong enough for die sets, especially if you plan on running 10's/100's of thousands of parts. They'd wear down too fast, require too much maintenance and repair, and be susceptible to cracking and chunks breaking off. Die sets for producing car parts would be made out of hardened steel.
What used to be done, back when I knew what I was talking about, was casting the gross part, machining it into the final shape, then re-heating under pressure to recrystallize the metal. This was called "case hardening" and worked just fine. The stamping dies are also huge compared to the aluminium sheets, so even without this I don't imagine they would need super-strength, and cast metal can be very hard without being particularly strong.
Krugerrand
Meow
It's not fairly standard in the industry (unless you're planning on rebuilding new die sets every year) and the amount of tooling people they'd need to build their own die sets isn't something that they possess. There were never jobs posted for that kind of staff. Thousands of people have toured the factory over the years, if they were building their dies, we'd have heard about it via people witnessing a large tooling shop within the factory with all the associated equipment. As has been reported before, their dies are made by others. Someone just recently posted the name of one of those companies; Fuji. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. They're making their own cast parts for the car (this we know because of the accident that happened last year), not making die sets. If and when we see postings for a huge hire of tooling personal for Lathrop, then we can start to speculate they're going to make their own dies.
Adding: maybe the confusion is the part of the die that might be cast (shell) and the part that's hardened steel (all the workings).
Krug beat me to it and is exactly right. They are casting parts there, not dies.
Krugerrand
Meow
And the number of casted parts recently doubled because of dual motors (are within a cast aluminum mold) and the increase in production. It makes sense that the casting department would have to expand to meet that increased demand and ever increasing demand.
I never said they have been casting their own dies. I agree with you that they have not been doing that. What they have said in interviews and can be backed up by job postings is that they plan to start making their own dies in the future. There's a good chance that's what they want to do at the Lathrop facility.
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OK, I see the misunderstanding now. When I said "It's what they're doing" it was in the context of their plans for the Lathrop facility. Meaning that's what they want to do in the future in Lathrop.
Krugerrand
Meow
What job postings? They need literally DOZENS and DOZENS of toolmakers, machinists, CNC operators etc... Point me to the 200-300 job listings that would be required to assemble a crew in Lathrop for the task of building Model 3 die sets (because we know it can't be for Model X). That's not even mentioning that those people do not exist in California, so the large majority would have to be recruited and relocated. That takes time and if I look at the calendar we're running out of time to do something of this scale. I'm not sure you understand the scope and size of a department that would be required to make hundreds of dies for the Model 3 and how long that would take to assemble and organize. And that's not even considering how much that particular industry has been decimated over the last couple of decades in North America. Nobody (in any large quantity) has gone to school to be a machinist or toolmaker for the last 20+ years.
Yes, I believe I've also heard that they want to build their own dies. So far, there's been no indication that I've seen that they're prepping for that. This is all I found listed for Lathrop: https://chc.tbe.taleo.net/chc01/ats/careers/searchResults.jsp?org=TESLA&cws=1 If suddenly that list explodes with the technical jobs required to build dies, then we can talk. So far all it suggests is a few more bodies for castings, although one position is for a recruiter. I'd hope they wouldn't leave the recruiting for Lathrop to do what you think they are doing to just one person, that alone would require a good sized team of recruiters.
You make a strong argument. However, this operation is too critical to be an all or nothing process. Tesla has multiple sources of dies, both overseas and in the US according to the job description of the manager of Tools & Die Operations. Admittedly dies are a critical path item. Tesla wouldn't have to entirely dispense with those suppliers, but it would make sense to start to develop in-house capabilities to augment outside sources when the pace of production increases by an order of magnitude. The desire to integrate this process in-house is what Gilbert Passin articulated back in 2011. Having this new facility with CNC machines and operators could conceivably be pursuing a less ambitious, but nevertheless prudent approach that permits Tesla to better control a critical item by incrementally integrating die manufacturing in-house. In other words it could be merely a start.
Larry
Krugerrand
Meow
Makes sense, Larry Chanin. We'll have to wait and see if the job listings eventually reflect that once the construction is done at Lathrop.
I think Lathrop is mainly used for motor assembly. The thing that I think they are doing is installing capacity to make copper rotors like in this video Yunnan Copper Die Casting Video | Copper Rotor Induction Motor . Teslas method will be quicker and less labour demanding though. Elon is a fan of having production in house. I bet this critical component is something he would like to produce himself.
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