Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[LN1_Casey]

How so? The Y performance is $56,700 and has 280 miles range. if you prefer driving a Ford, the Mach E “edition” comes in at $52,900 after the $7,500 tax credit, $4,200 cheaper than the Y performance, for almost the same range.

Hm, I know that's what the price is quoted to be, and the range of the Mach E, but I am very skeptical that it will actually get there. For one, dealerships = more expensive product than advertised, and for the other, they keep saying "target" range, which so far most companies fall flat on when they're actually tested.

I think in the end, the Mach E will be roughly the same price as the Model Y, after the incentives, and will be about 20-30 miles less range. Still close, but not as great as they're trying to predict it.

Further, the car won't release until at least 2021, so the Model Y will have two-ish years to improve range/cost before then.

 

[davecolene0606]

Oh my God. This quote from the same article. I swear it's really in there:

“We said, ‘What if we could deliver a vehicle that’s a rocket ship?’” Mr. Ford recalled.

Shake down mone.... errr uhhh Paid advertising = access to NYT marketing depart.... um I mean unbiased journalism department.

Fire Away!

 

[bhtooefr]

Does someone have knowledge of or a link to any such known VW-Ford link-up?

From earlier in the thread (it was linked in a context of MEB allegedly being used in the Mach-E, which doesn't appear to be the case, but it *is* a VW press release about the link-up):

"We want to establish MEB as an industry standard"

 

[j6Lpi429@3j]

I want to say that Tesla is focusing on teaching the cars to see 360 vs letting us see 360.

thats great. in the meantime there are a whole bunch of cars that make parking in tight spaces easier than a tesla / they already HAVE the hardware, seems like an easy feature to add...

 

[MTL_HABS1909]

Model 3 LR AWD is now 4.4 second 0-60, so the difference is even larger, although the Model Y LR AWD is 4.8 seconds. I hope Ford sells a lot of them, but I think that anyone who truly looks at the performance, range, and infotainment specs is going to see how superior the Tesla product is.

And that's just what Tesla posts officially right now. After the latest OTA update, it get even worse for the competition. Wonder when Tesla will update the posted specs on their site....

"Tesla Model 3 Long Range, All-Wheel Drive (LR-AWD)

When it was announced in March 2018, Tesla promised a 4.5s 0-60mph time for the LR-AWD. Today, Tesla advertises the LR-AWD with a 4.4s time. In November 2019 with the latest software, that time now tests at 4.159s. Source: Reddit User Wugz with lots more detailed data"

Tesla Model 3 0-60mph times, then and now, all trims compared - Electrek

 

[Todd Burch]

FWIW, on Ford's Canadian site they are advertising the 0 - 60 mph of the First Edition as mid-7's:
View attachment 478326

Yeah, but those are Canadian seconds.

 

[Todd Burch]

I agree with the 360 camera--we have the cameras already, why not?

I'm "meh" about the foot activated tailgate. I've never had one, but I would think that if you don't wash the underbelly enough, it'd block the sensor so it'd be useless. Or always activating when you walked near it with your fob/phone.

You don't need a foot-operated tailgate. With all the neural net smarts, you could just make a gesture that the camera recognizes to open the tailgate.

 

[Nocturnal]

thats great. in the meantime there are a whole bunch of cars that make parking in tight spaces easier than a tesla / they already HAVE the hardware, seems like an easy feature to add...

I definitely would like to see it added myself.

 

[Thekiwi]

Hm, I know that's what the price is quoted to be, and the range of the Mach E, but I am very skeptical that it will actually get there. For one, dealerships = more expensive product than advertised, and for the other, they keep saying "target" range, which so far most companies fall flat on when they're actually tested.

I think in the end, the Mach E will be roughly the same price as the Model Y, after the incentives, and will be about 20-30 miles less range. Still close, but not as great as they're trying to predict it.

Further, the car won't release until at least 2021, so the Model Y will have two-ish years to improve range/cost before then.

actually the Y performance is $61,000 (had the Tesla “include potential savings” modifier on originally).

 

[Chocochip]

And that configurator shows Ford doesn’t really understand this new-fangled EV stuff. Check out the battery capacity

View attachment 478322

Wait, so the difference between RWD and AWD for the standard range (interesting choice of words there!) battery version is:

- peak power: 190kW (RWD) vs 190kW (AWD)
- 0-60mph: low-6s (RWD) vs ~5.5s (AWD)
- range: 230 miles (RWD) vs 210 miles (AWD)
- price: $2700 extra for the AWD

So for an extra $2700 you get less than a second improvement in 0-60 times -- although we were told repeatedly in recent years that performance is NOT about 0-60 times! -- even though the peak power is the same, and 20 miles of range less!

Notice, also, how the battery (and aaaall that extra BMS-related stuff in there) is blue, while the motors are purple. No, you're not gonna see any purple for the RWD platform, because of the really smart choice of angle under which it's shown.

 

[Chocochip]

FWIW, on Ford's Canadian site they are advertising the 0 - 60 mph of the First Edition as mid-7's:

View attachment 478326

Canada: colder, denser air, higher drag. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Unpilot]

Ford is getting no bounce from the mustang e.

 

[Foghat]

Does Tesla bring a lift to your job?

Unfortunately, many Tesla owners need to take their cars to actual service centers where waits can be very long.

Most of the car buying public trust traditional auto companies more than Tesla.

Would you trust Tesla more with an electric car’s reliability, performance, and maintenance or do you put more trust in Ford in the same aspects?

Do you trust Ford to put electric car driving experience paramount over ICE or do you trust Tesla would do that more so?

Do you trust Ford’s electric vehicle infrastructure more than Tesla’s?

Would you buy a Mustang electric GT with 230 range or would you buy a Model 3 325 range for approx same price?

 

[LN1_Casey]

actually the Y performance is $61,000 (had the Tesla “include potential savings” modifier on originally).

Yeah, that whole 'potential saving' thing is a bit annoying. Wish there was a cookie setting so I can stop having to click "actual price" every time I stalk the website.

But also, if you're going top performance, than the Ford "GT" edition is a better comparison, and is "estimated" 60.5k, not including 7.5k/state incentives or taxes. 250 miles target. Compare to 61k actual, 280miles most-likely-actual-but-not-officially-tested-yet (I'm betting it does 280 or better, since Tesla is quiet experienced by now with their batteries and ranges).

It's already 30 miles difference, for 8k difference in price. And that's not including the dealer costs, nor what Ford actually ends up getting in range for their top of the line performance model.

Now that I stalked the Y page a bit...

I'm curious as to the Model Y's battery pack sizes, however. LR AWD and Performance have the same estimated miles, which seems a little off to me. Unless they're just software locked to save manufacturing ease until ramping is complete?

 

[izemize]

You can't sell a simple compact Ford SUV for $60k.

For $60k? I also think it's going to be challenging, but....
the thing is that the starting price is $43,895 - $7,500 (US credits) = $36,395 (for the select model). Obviously that comes with a bit lower range (230 vs 250mi) than the model 3, but it's a bit cheaper and significantly roomier.

Also if you pre-order the Mach-e Premium with extended battery, that sets you back $55,600 - $7,500 = $48,100. That's exactly in line with the Model Y long range model (in price and range). You can also order this without the extended battery and have a CUV for $43,100.

It's hard not to say that at least in range and pricing it's been positioned to be a direct competitor to the model Y and in some cases the model 3.

Further, the car won't release until at least 2021, so the Model Y will have two-ish years to improve range/cost before then.

Production of the Mach-e First / Premium editions will start late 2020, just like the Model Y. Only the select edition and more sportier versions will be pushed out to 2021.

 

[Skryll]

Yeah, that whole 'potential saving' thing is a bit annoying. Wish there was a cookie setting so I can stop having to click "actual price" every time I stalk the website.

...one of the excuses my friend listed why he bought a 2019 Honda Accord Hybrid instead of a Tesla Model 3 is the perceived dishonest advertisement on teslas website, plus all the FUD he heard that undermined teslas credibility, plus service issues reported by my wife as a reality check with an actual tesla owner. Very disappointing to me, I know he made a stupid mistake, but he doesnt see that yet. Once FSD becomes real it should be obvious to him as well.

 

[Ratanpara]

Ford came out with decent spec EV, Congratulations. Now the hard part ,Ford will have decent gross margin on this EV ? probably not, If not Ford will sell this reluctantly, meaning let’s not sell many of this, If not ,cost won’t go down, even though battery cost going down but supply demand will play huge roll, assuming they buy battery from LG, if demand is high at LG , they will not be in hurry to pass cost savings to Ford.

 

[jhm]

That test strikes me as rather odd. I was trying to think about what kind of driving environment you might find a hazard so skinny and so stiff. You can see how it's reinforced with the steel beam near the base and perpendicular to the direction of travel. This artificial hazard is stronger and skinnier than a tree, stronger than any light pole, electrical pole or roadsign base you will find in real-world driving environments. These tests cost a lot of money to conduct so they generally try to mimic the kinds of events that real drivers might actually encounter. And yet, it looks like the Deutscher Kraftfahrzeug-Überwachungs-Verein (German Motor Vehicle Inspection Association) deliberately designed a test that was completely unrealistic. This kind of thing is not an accident!

It's almost as if they hoped it would burst into flames! Note that a gas car probably wouldn't burst into flames with this kind of test because this kind of test is over very quickly and does not produce a lot of sparks with which to ignite gasoline vapor. If I were trying to design a test in which an EV might perform worse than a gas-powered car, this is the test I would design.

This shows just how frightened the ICE industry is about the coming onslaught of EV's!

To be fair, I do think that it is valid for safety engineers to be contemplating what sort of hazards may specifically imperil EVs but not so much ICE vehicles. That is to guard against some emergent risk not yet numerically obvious while the EV fleet is small. That said, the fact that the must invent such extreme tests that have little real world validity actually suggest that such emergent risk is very unlikely.

 

[Tslynk67]

I'm rather surprised that nobody has mentioned the SuC fire in @ Wawa in New Jersey.

It's not much of a drama - no injuries or damage to property AFAIK, but the news-feeds are crawling with it and I think that's why the SP has been going the wrong way for the last couple of hours.

I wouldn't rule-out arson by those $TSLAQ nutcases...

Fred Alert: Tesla Supercharger station caught on fire while ~13 gas stations had fires - Electrek

Extracts:

A Tesla Supercharger station located at a Wawa convenience store in New Jersey caught on fire yesterday. The cause of the fire is currently unknown and Tesla is reportedly investigating the situation.

“Tesla had an issue with their cabinet and the power has been shut off while they are investigating. Our store was unaffected as it is on a completely separate power line.”

The fire department was quickly on the scene and the fire appeared to be quickly under control.

No injury has been reported.

We contacted Tesla, who is reportedly investigating the situation, to learn more about the fire. We will update if we get more information.

There were previous instances of fires at Supercharger stations, but they always involved Tesla vehicles catching on fire and not the Supercharger station itself.

It might be a first.

In comparison, every year more than 5,000 gas station fires are reported in the US, according to the National Fire Protection Association.

 

[Joe F]

Unbelievable and shameless CNBC reporting on the number of rear seat passengers deaths that were not wearing seatbelts. Oh yeah, they showed a Tesla Model S crash test while reading the findings. They just can't help craping on Tesla yet again.

No link as it just aired...