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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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There were some legitimate concerns in 2019. Tesla had only 2B in cash after earnings in which they just lost 1.6B. Elon was closing Model S/X shifts and stores. The miss on production was not a few percentage points but like 35%. Then Elon goes and tell the team they have enough money to survive till October if nothing is changed. EV tax credit was just cut in half so that was another headwind.

I've never seen an investment in my 30+ years of investing that didn't have legitimate concerns. And I would know because my investing style is based on avoiding losses. I cannot invest more than a smallish percentage of my portfolio in a company unless it's about as close to a "sure thing" as it gets. And I've done very well by scooping up the big wins and having very few losses. When Tesla announced they were going public in 2012 I did the deep dive. I liked what I saw. I wanted a substantial TSLA position badly. But it didn't meet my investment criteria - far too risky. I was crushed when it continued up out of reach, especially in 2013 (I believe) but I didn't stop watching it for another 7 years. I still wanted it; I just didn't want to overpay. I kept reading the financials, not every quarter but often enough to know it still didn't meet my investment criteria. So I just kept watching.

In May of 2018 we took delivery of our first Tesla, a RWD Model 3. I had almost bought a Model S many times before but the only version I wanted would have been over $100K and I don't like to spend that much on a car even though I could have afforded a fleet of them. Anyway, I was even more impressed with the quality and performance of the RWD LR Model 3 (only release version available) that I wanted TSLA shares even worse. By this time I was following the company very closely, knew they made a great product, but the financials were still prohibiting me from taking a real position. I did buy a few hundred shares as a "token" position, just for fun but quickly sold it after the "take private" Tweet and all the surrounding madness for a small profit. I'm not a trader, things just looked like they were falling apart and I've never hesitated to dump a stock when I didn't like what I saw. I did buy a Performance Model 3 in September, but I was not a shareholder. This car was built during the EOQ rush and it was high quality and without fault as well.

I think it was the Q4 2018 financials that had me ready to start buying TSLA in earnest because I was able to see how profitable the company would become with increasing volumes and they were finally building decent volumes of Model 3's. And TSLA was in the $200 range so I started buying. And the price continued to deteriorate. Then Q1 financials came out and they were widely panned. But I thought they looked solid, so I bought more a couple more times. These were no longer token positions, I was building a large position based on my belief that Tesla was going to continue ramping volumes and the price to produce was going to continue falling. I felt it was very low long-term risk at this point because the ball was already in motion. And it was a big, heavy ball that was almost unstoppable. Tesla was going to be successfull!

People were saying demand was going to run out, but I thought the product was so groundbreaking I was confident that could not happen. My last purchases (so far) were at $220/share and I knew I wanted a lot more TSLA but I didn't know when it would stop falling. I waited through weeks of relentless FUD but it didn't faze me because I knew it for what it was (losers trying to change reality). I watched Tesla and TSLA every day, ready to swoop in should it look like the price was going to start rising or to sell if my thesis was starting to crumble. But my thesis was being strengthened by what I was seeing even as the price kept falling. Finally it bounced off $180/share, I didn't know if that was the bottom or not, but it was so cheap I decided not to continue dollar cost averaging and bought enough to double my already sizeable position in one fell swoop. And the FUD continued as strong as ever and stock was no longer falling, it was rising. I added to my position a couple more times before the rockets were lit and the share price went parabolic.

I warned people right here to not sell too early because this rocket was going higher than anyone thought. Indeed, it went higher, much higher, than even I thought. I didn't like how high it went but my investment style requires that I don't close out my position of a winner unless one of two things happens:

1) My investment thesis falls apart or,
2) The price goes so high I cannot see a reasonable path to justify it within 6-7 years.

I did take some profits but only because I live on capital gains and I need to replenish my living funds every few years so I don't have to sell stock at inopportune times.

But back to Tesla. In the first half of 2019 there was much noise, company cash reserves were low, but cash flow was positive and the company was on the verge of becoming profitable. This was a big deal. Further, Tesla had built enough cred that they could raise money relatively easily and quickly, should the need arise. I knew the future of the company was not in selling luxury cars that even relatively affluent persons such as us didn't want to pay for, future profits would come from high volume sales of mass-market cars. So, it didn't bother me that Elon was focusing on the Model 3 production at the expense of everything else.

My point here is that I learned a long time ago that if an investor waits until there are absolutely no legitimate concerns and everything looks cool to most investors, then you have to pay a lot more for your shares. And that's coming from an investor that avoids risk. Things will not look A-OK to most investors before TSLA starts trading in a higher range. And probably not the ranges above that either. An investor makes money when risks that are not real, or are very unlikely to be real, don't prevent action (while risks that are real need to be properly accounted for). I don't like taking risks but the risk that the share price might go lower is not the kind of risk I'm talking about here, it's not a real risk, unless you break the investment rules of thumb.

The rules that are pertinent in this context are, 1) no margin, 2) that you won't need the investment capital for at least two years, and 3) that you have to be ok with at least a tiny chance that you could lose most or all of it. This last one is the risk I try to keep as small as possible by investing in companies that are as close as you can get to being a sure thing as possible (won't fail and go bankrupt or languish for years). The first two rules ensure I won't have to sell if it continues lower in the near-term, and the last rule is simply a risk you have to manage to keep it as tiny and insignificant as possible. The last rule implies you have to liquidate your position at a loss if the landscape changes so much that your original investment thesis is no longer valid at current prices. That is not a concern I see with Tesla in the foreseeable future with the price as low as it is.

Never let a low share price scare you when the fundamentals are this strong. A low share price is a net positive if you have investable capital and, if you don't have any dry powder left, it's only a negative if you need to sell. It does seem like TSLA has a natural resistance to go lower at these levels, at least if the macro environment doesn't continue to deteriorate, but it wouldn't surprise me to see one more attempt to push it down briefly to clean up on one more layer of margin/stop losses, etc. Just know that, by now, there are well capitalized interests that are starting to think TSLA looks interesting so any moves down from here will probably need to be either very brief or else accompanied by significant bad news that is significant to Tesla's longer-term trajectory.

I can also see the possibility of things firming up from here based on nothing more than it often takes several days for new information (like the recent P&D report) to sink in. There are large piles of investment capital sitting around and TSLA is very investable at these levels. This money is not controlled by traders who turn on a dime, it's controlled in a very methodical manner, slow even, so it often takes a few days for momentum to build after significant news, it's more likely after favorable financials than a simple P&D report but it can happen at any time. I remember in 2019, before TSLA went parabolic near the end of the year, financials would show favorable trends overall, but the media would instantly drop poop on them and make them sound like they disappointed. Traders would dump and then it would take several days for slow, methodical money to start flooding in, sometimes with surprisingly strong and longer lasting impacts to the share price.

I don't really try to predict these things; I'm just discussing them to highlight that real strength in the share price can be a little mysterious and often comes when it's least expected and it can flow contrary to whatever the popular talking points of the day are. That's why it's so important to not get lost in the weeds dissecting details that don't matter. Smart money flows in when the big picture looks like it is turning the corner. It has nothing to do with what you see all the talking heads on TV or Twitter talking about as they endlessly repeat how distracted Elon is from the mission, how his Tweets are destroying demand, etc. This really is about longer-term growth and profits in the end and most everything else is noise, like the magician's handkerchief that draws your eyes to the left when the real action is on the right. Resist the temptation to let your attention be drawn off into the weeds.

Never forget the most important rule: Never determine the value of your investments by the share price because that works against your ability to buy low and sell high which is fundamentally why anyone invests. Whether you are buying or selling, it's critical that your valuation remain completely independent of the actual market price. The market price is only useful in determining how much you are risking. the lower it is relative to your independent valuation, the less you are risking. Which is why with an investment as good as TSLA, I am more comfortable with a low price than a high price.
 
Hornsdale power reserve payed for itself in two years on the buy low-sell high principle.
Hornsdale actually made the bulk of their money from providing grid frequency support at lower prices than gas.

Batteries can and will reduce a lot of expensive gas usage in the grid, frequency support, peaking demand, temporary shortage of supply.

Beating gas on price isn't that hard.

Tesla can and will use a lot of batteries at factories and at Superchargers. but not no reason not to sell them. Possibly a reason to make more of them.

Tesla is putting a lot of software R&D into improving how batteries can operate and make money, when batteries become an important part of grid reliability and good software maximises income, software is important,
 
About a decade ago I/we pulled our business out of being a storage designer/manufacturer. One of the reasons I did so was because I knew we did not have the depth of capital to go head-to-head with Musk/Tesla in the space, and nor could we compensate with low labour costs. So we focussed in other places. I/we were very right to be concerned as Tesla's offering was attractive: they simply had more firepower and it showed.

Collectively the Chinese on the other hand did not step back. They have comparable depth of capital to Tesla/Musk (or far more, depending on how you view things) and they pushed ahead with moving LFP from concept to reality, reaching (now) a price/performance point that is globally relevant to the mass market for storage. (and related stuff) They primarily did that because they were motivated by the vehicle market. The term I have used for 15+ years is that there is a mobility-premium for wrapping a battery in a vehicle shell, and the market simply does not - for many very understandable reasons - want to grant that premium margin to stationary storage. So LFP was aimed at vehicles. But it is also en passant solving the storage problem which is now scaling fast.

The size of that rapidly growing mass market from year-to-year is a closely held secret, if indeed anyone knows all the puzzle pieces. I try to track it through different approaches, but it is nigh-on impossible to quantify. I'm not sure many other people have a much better understanding, however much they sell their research reports for (they used to come to me, trying to blag me to get my data for their report). As you probably know I suss out the vehicle/battery splits each year to try and keep tabs on that, enough to do some basic public domain analysis. Quantifying storage with an equivalent precision was tough. From the limited poor quality signals I could assess, until last year I thought Tesla had overwhelming dominance in the utility segment, but was less obviously dominant in the domestic segment, and there were signs that the commercial segment was a fizzle for everyone.

In the course of the last year it has become clearer from the qualitative public domain info that Tesla is no longer competitive in the domestic market. That is why apart from some special niche markets (such as the USA ..... which is why a lot of US-ians aren't reading the tea leaves well ....) Tesla has largely pulled out of attempts to grow their presence in domestic. Instead Tesla has focussed its efforts on the larger utility-scale products and projects. Now does this mean that Tesla can't sell every (domestic) Powerwall it produces: no. Does this mean the price for Powerwall's is reducing : no. So But go look in the market beyond the USA and the Tesla Powerwall is practically a dead product, swamped under a tidal wave of Chinese clones. Overall the Chinese are growing their absolute market size faster than Tesla is, and hence Tesla's market share is reducing.

Anyone who has ever read Christensen's "Innovators Dilemma" can tell you what is most likely to come next. I've spoilt things by giving my opinion. Tesla will sell every utility scale Megapack they can make for the next few years and will command a premium price for them. None of them will sell into China. Many will sell into USA or to clients in the wider western alliance who are allergic to China. But increasingly the Chinese will move upscale into the utility segment and take what in the longer term will likely become the commanding position. And then Tesla utility-scale storage margins will wither year-by-year with no path back, no matter how many turnaround plans are attempted. The projected scenario in the graphs I gave earlier are very much the high-case; the low-case is far less attractive.

Is this a logical harvesting strategy for Tesla, yes. Is it a sign of weaknesses inside Tesla, also yes. Ultimately we know that pathway is terminal in the hardware space. (Tesla keeps on saying that is has not got a capital problem, but it has been AWOL on deploying it aggressively in this space. So that means Tesla has had a leadership talent problem in this space. I'd have though that much was patently obvious given the history of what we now call Tesla Energy). Does it mean investors should worry, absolutely, because by the time storage sales revenues are that significant then also the stuffing will have been beaten out of margins.

I realise it is not popular to say this, but a corresponding story is so far playing out in the BEV market. The data shows that Tesla is year-on-year losing market share by volume, by GWh, and by revenue. I last posted this graph about 11-months ago. Clearly Tesla has put its first team into bat in the vehicle market, and the seconds are playing in the storage market (and crikey knows who are in the solar market). The first team are playing an excellent game. The second team may be about to get a second wind for a while. And the third team are playing in some 0.1% league.

The analysts who are asking questions on the quarterly call are about as dangerous as a newborn baby deer. The better-armed hunters in the market have shot off a lot of ammunition recently, and some of it has hit home - that was because they can detect a valid scent, even if they don't yet fully understand it. Tesla needs to decide whether it is predator or prey, rather than distractedly fiddling with blue feathery baubles in another room.

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This excellent view/perspective reminds to me that while the stockholders might get rich while Tesla continues to pursue their noble mission, stockholders making money is merely a possible side effect. Tesla isn't cutthroat with their competitors, rather respectable competitors are welcome since it supports the mission.
 
But thats not the issue. The issue is December China sales.

Now with Berlin ramping up, Shanghai production needs to go somewhere .... and if the demand in China is softening, where do the cars go. Thats the question on Wall St. No, Thailand or UAE is not going to make up for that kind of volume.

People keep saying "if demand in China is softening" but they don't provide any evidence that it is except for the obvious softening that's going to happen with the waves of COVID infection that swept through Shanghai and surrounding regions in December. People are not all that excited to take delivery of a new car when they are sick with COVID, and infection rates are running rampant. This situation also impacted transportation of new cars and probably production due to parts delays.

It should be common sense that this is a temporary condition and yet some people are acting like a fundamental change in demand has suddenly happened in China that just happens to coincidentally align with the COVID pandemic without explaining what has changed. Oh, that's right, Elon on Twitter (even though Twitter is not allowed in China). Is this what passes for good analysis these days?

Remember, a softening of demand is not significant unless it impacts sales going forward. Before this, there was too much demand, and I suspect there still is. At least I have seen no reliable evidence there is a China demand problem. Remember, China is a huge country and Tesla has just started to make inroads.
 
He must be wishing he came to this conclusion before dad lost 10M ;)
(+best wishes, he seemed like a decent guy ...)

It's not just his dad. Losses seem to have spread further into his family (Lee was likely managing their investments, too):


Margerine can bite you on the backside, like a bear. That's a shame for his family, but if Lee now tries to make back those losses by pushing his lumpy bear thesis on Social Media, that's not cool.
 
Or they could just add the third row seats to all cars, and give buyers the option to have them removed after delivery (and if removed, give the buyer a $3000 check). The Y was designed to have the rear seats removed, so this seems like the best solution.

Everyone who wants a 5 seat MY could then just buy the 7 seat Model Y, get the credit, and have the seats removed upon delivery. Adds some work, but not something a service/delivery center can't handle. Seats can then be shipped back to Tesla for use in another 7 (ahem 5) seater.

I know it seems stupid, but this would also get around the dumb IRS guidelines.
I strongly suspect that since Elon is clearly on-record as mostly anti-subsidy, he won't go for the clever gimmicky solutions floating around this thread. I think he'll support only solutions that take the high road like reduced MSRP, or only selling 7-seaters in US, etc. Just my subjective read on Elon.
 
I've never seen an investment in my 30+ years of investing that didn't have legitimate concerns. And I would know because my investing style is based on avoiding losses. I cannot invest more than a smallish percentage of my portfolio in a company unless it's about as close to a "sure thing" as it gets. And I've done very well by scooping up the big wins and having very few losses. When Tesla announced they were going public in 2012 I did the deep dive. I liked what I saw. I wanted a substantial TSLA position badly. But it didn't meet my investment criteria - far too risky. I was crushed when it continued up out of reach, especially in 2013 (I believe) but I didn't stop watching it for another 7 years. I still wanted it; I just didn't want to overpay. I kept reading the financials, not every quarter but often enough to know it still didn't meet my investment criteria. So I just kept watching.

In May of 2018 we took delivery of our first Tesla, a RWD Model 3. I had almost bought a Model S many times before but the only version I wanted would have been over $100K and I don't like to spend that much on a car even though I could have afforded a fleet of them. Anyway, I was even more impressed with the quality and performance of the RWD LR Model 3 (only release version available) that I wanted TSLA shares even worse. By this time I was following the company very closely, knew they made a great product, but the financials were still prohibiting me from taking a real position. I did buy a few hundred shares as a "token" position, just for fun but quickly sold it after the "take private" Tweet and all the surrounding madness for a small profit. I'm not a trader, things just looked like they were falling apart and I've never hesitated to dump a stock when I didn't like what I saw. I did buy a Performance Model 3 in September, but I was not a shareholder. This car was built during the EOQ rush and it was high quality and without fault as well.

I think it was the Q4 2018 financials that had me ready to start buying TSLA in earnest because I was able to see how profitable the company would become with increasing volumes and they were finally building decent volumes of Model 3's. And TSLA was in the $200 range so I started buying. And the price continued to deteriorate. Then Q1 financials came out and they were widely panned. But I thought they looked solid, so I bought more a couple more times. These were no longer token positions, I was building a large position based on my belief that Tesla was going to continue ramping volumes and the price to produce was going to continue falling. I felt it was very low long-term risk at this point because the ball was already in motion. And it was a big, heavy ball that was almost unstoppable. Tesla was going to be successfull!

People were saying demand was going to run out, but I thought the product was so groundbreaking I was confident that could not happen. My last purchases (so far) were at $220/share and I knew I wanted a lot more TSLA but I didn't know when it would stop falling. I waited through weeks of relentless FUD but it didn't faze me because I knew it for what it was (losers trying to change reality). I watched Tesla and TSLA every day, ready to swoop in should it look like the price was going to start rising or to sell if my thesis was starting to crumble. But my thesis was being strengthened by what I was seeing even as the price kept falling. Finally it bounced off $180/share, I didn't know if that was the bottom or not, but it was so cheap I decided not to continue dollar cost averaging and bought enough to double my already sizeable position in one fell swoop. And the FUD continued as strong as ever and stock was no longer falling, it was rising. I added to my position a couple more times before the rockets were lit and the share price went parabolic.

I warned people right here to not sell too early because this rocket was going higher than anyone thought. Indeed, it went higher, much higher, than even I thought. I didn't like how high it went but my investment style requires that I don't close out my position of a winner unless one of two things happens:

1) My investment thesis falls apart or,
2) The price goes so high I cannot see a reasonable path to justify it within 6-7 years.

I did take some profits but only because I live on capital gains and I need to replenish my living funds every few years so I don't have to sell stock at inopportune times.

But back to Tesla. In the first half of 2019 there was much noise, company cash reserves were low, but cash flow was positive and the company was on the verge of becoming profitable. This was a big deal. Further, Tesla had built enough cred that they could raise money relatively easily and quickly, should the need arise. I knew the future of the company was not in selling luxury cars that even relatively affluent persons such as us didn't want to pay for, future profits would come from high volume sales of mass-market cars. So, it didn't bother me that Elon was focusing on the Model 3 production at the expense of everything else.

My point here is that I learned a long time ago that if an investor waits until there are absolutely no legitimate concerns and everything looks cool to most investors, then you have to pay a lot more for your shares. And that's coming from an investor that avoids risk. Things will not look A-OK to most investors before TSLA starts trading in a higher range. And probably not the ranges above that either. An investor makes money when risks that are not real, or are very unlikely to be real, don't prevent action (while risks that are real need to be properly accounted for). I don't like taking risks but the risk that the share price might go lower is not the kind of risk I'm talking about here, it's not a real risk, unless you break the investment rules of thumb.

The rules that are pertinent in this context are, 1) no margin, 2) that you won't need the investment capital for at least two years, and 3) that you have to be ok with at least a tiny chance that you could lose most or all of it. This last one is the risk I try to keep as small as possible by investing in companies that are as close as you can get to being a sure thing as possible (won't fail and go bankrupt or languish for years). The first two rules ensure I won't have to sell if it continues lower in the near-term, and the last rule is simply a risk you have to manage to keep it as tiny and insignificant as possible. The last rule implies you have to liquidate your position at a loss if the landscape changes so much that your original investment thesis is no longer valid at current prices. That is not a concern I see with Tesla in the foreseeable future with the price as low as it is.

Never let a low share price scare you when the fundamentals are this strong. A low share price is a net positive if you have investable capital and, if you don't have any dry powder left, it's only a negative if you need to sell. It does seem like TSLA has a natural resistance to go lower at these levels, at least if the macro environment doesn't continue to deteriorate, but it wouldn't surprise me to see one more attempt to push it down briefly to clean up on one more layer of margin/stop losses, etc. Just know that, by now, there are well capitalized interests that are starting to think TSLA looks interesting so any moves down from here will probably need to be either very brief or else accompanied by significant bad news that is significant to Tesla's longer-term trajectory.

I can also see the possibility of things firming up from here based on nothing more than it often takes several days for new information (like the recent P&D report) to sink in. There are large piles of investment capital sitting around and TSLA is very investable at these levels. This money is not controlled by traders who turn on a dime, it's controlled in a very methodical manner, slow even, so it often takes a few days for momentum to build after significant news, it's more likely after favorable financials than a simple P&D report but it can happen at any time. I remember in 2019, before TSLA went parabolic near the end of the year, financials would show favorable trends overall, but the media would instantly drop poop on them and make them sound like they disappointed. Traders would dump and then it would take several days for slow, methodical money to start flooding in, sometimes with surprisingly strong and longer lasting impacts to the share price.

I don't really try to predict these things; I'm just discussing them to highlight that real strength in the share price can be a little mysterious and often comes when it's least expected and it can flow contrary to whatever the popular talking points of the day are. That's why it's so important to not get lost in the weeds dissecting details that don't matter. Smart money flows in when the big picture looks like it is turning the corner. It has nothing to do with what you see all the talking heads on TV or Twitter talking about as they endlessly repeat how distracted Elon is from the mission, how his Tweets are destroying demand, etc. This really is about longer-term growth and profits in the end and most everything else is noise, like the magician's handkerchief that draws your eyes to the left when the real action is on the right. Resist the temptation to let your attention be drawn off into the weeds.

Never forget the most important rule: Never determine the value of your investments by the share price because that works against your ability to buy low and sell high which is fundamentally why anyone invests. Whether you are buying or selling, it's critical that your valuation remain completely independent of the actual market price. The market price is only useful in determining how much you are risking. the lower it is relative to your independent valuation, the less you are risking. Which is why with an investment as good as TSLA, I am more comfortable with a low price than a high price.
I thought you were a longer term owner.
 
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I strongly suspect that since Elon is clearly on-record as mostly anti-subsidy, he won't go for the clever gimmicky solutions floating around this thread. I think he'll support only solutions that take the high road like reduced MSRP, or only selling 7-seaters in US, etc. Just my subjective read on Elon.

I agree. But I don't consider a Model Y "Adventure" trim with enough ground clearance to qualify as a SUV and rugged looking tires to be a gimmicky solution. It could even come in cool colors that look more rugged and sell at a premium. I think it would find a big market of new Tesla buyers in N. America even though it wouldn't handle as well around corners and would have a shorter range due to worse aero.

The 7-seater in current form would be the alternative Long Range version and then there could be a 5-seat standard range, bare bones model that could come in under $55K and still be eligible.

The tricky part is the rules are likely to change, that makes it tough to plan any versions that need new crash testing and other validation. Also, it takes time to collect enough data to figure out what kind of volumes could be expected of the various trims and how each version affects the take rates of the other versions and thus overall margins. It gets complicated with no clarity on how likely the rules are to evolve over time, it's not the kind of thing I think Tesla will rush into.
 
I’m feeling confident that the earnings call will be good for TSLA as long as Elon is not on the call or at least doesn’t go all worst-case scenario apocalyptic mode as he usually does.

U wanna hold the remote? :p

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