Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Ogre]

Frankly, I find this whole Elon not wanting USA subsidies to continue a bit hypocritical. They benefited greatly when others were trying to follow and if their MISSION STATEMENT is still “to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy” then they should be just as happy that other fast (or slow) followers get the same benefits and incentives that Tesla did. If not, It rings a bit hollow to me at least.

The old incentives are not expiring. Every other company will have the opportunity to partake in the exact same opportunity and incentives Tesla did.

They can get incentives to produce 200k vehicles. They can use it wisely as Tesla did. Or squander it as GM did.

The current state actually gives the advantage to Tesla’s competitors like Ford and Rivian for several years.

 

[torifile]

If gasoline was 2-4X more expensive, like in Europe, we wouldn't need as many subsidies for EVs. Let's get rid of gas subsidies already.

And how are lower income people supposed to get to work if they can’t afford the gas? Gas is so expensive in Europe because healthcare and childcare don’t eat 40-50% of the average family’s income. Don’t get me wrong - I am against gas subsidies but we cannot just take them away unless there’s an alternative already in place.

Hence the need for the EV subsidy and charging infrastructure. First. Otherwise, there will be a real labor problem in this country.

 

[Ogre]

They don't get it. They will never get it.

Then they will die.

The time when the cost of EVs must be greater than the cost of ICE vehicles is rapidly coming to an end. Even with EVs selling at a premium to ICE, consumers prefer EVs. As the cost of EVs drops below the cost of new ICE vehicles, ICE customers will disappear.

Musk doesn’t care about subsidies because he’s very nearly won against ICE, it’s just going to take a few years before production catches up and the results are evident to the rest of the world. Subsidies or not, we’re switching as fast as Tesla and competition smart enough to transition can increase production.

If they don’t “get it” and are only making EVs to collect the subsidies, they will almost certainly not survive the coming paradigm shift regardless.

 

[jbcarioca]

It's was comical man. He, the CEO was saying how by 2025 that Stellantis would be almost 100% EV. And yet as of Q4 2021, they have zero EV vehicles.

They have >20 BEV and more coming. The reality is preferable to false posts.
I personally have driven 500E, 208 eGT and a superficial web search will show Opel, Peugeot, Citroën plus several trucks and vans. All BEV.

They are not perfect but it does not help to deny reality.

 

[tivoboy]

And how are lower income people supposed to get to work if they can’t afford the gas? Gas is so expensive in Europe because healthcare and childcare don’t eat 40-50% of the average family’s income. Don’t get me wrong - I am against gas subsidies but we cannot just take them away unless there’s an alternative already in place.

Hence the need for the EV subsidy and charging infrastructure. First. Otherwise, there will be a real labor problem in this country.

Well, technically TAXES in Europe eat 40-50% or people income, but they DO get MOSTLY free healthcare and MOSTLY free education and MOSTLY free retirement income, and the list goes on. I’m not saying it’s a better system, but at some point you do get what you pay for - or not. European GAS taxes are not a means to support social programs but rather a means to encourage alternative transportation, which they do. So, it’s not taking as much from Peter to pay Pall as it might appear to be on the surface.

And there are not really any GAS subsidies in the USA per se, more oil exploration and extraction subsidies that had long term enactment and continue to get RE-enacted due to most likely a lot of K street lobbying.

 

[RobDickinson]

Musk cares about accelerating sustainable transport etc.

Its unclear if outside of tesla the last lot of USA subsidies helped at all.

These subsidies dont appear to be structured to do that either, its a handout to failing companies who are too slow to move. otherwise why not get Tesla involved?

 

[insaneoctane]

Short interest dropping...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1468302703998783492

Wonder why SI is dropping???

 

[Krugerrand]

Wonder why SI is dropping???

Lots of mysteries in play today.

 

[Favguy]

Well, technically TAXES in Europe eat 40-50% or people income, but they DO get MOSTLY free healthcare and MOSTLY free education and MOSTLY free retirement income, and the list goes on. I’m not saying it’s a better system

It is demonstrably a better system for lower income people, who make up the majority of the demographic over here. (UK) and I'd expect in the US as well. I'd expect the US is better for middle to upper middle class incomes though, as US peers do seem to earn multiples of what we get here in the higher paid professions.

 

[Jack6591]

Dropping all subsidies would require an entire reset of the American political system; an abandonment of political lobbying. Radical idea, I like it.

 

[InTheShadows]

OMG. I have been watching the Tesla economist for so long now. He is not at all how I pictured him. Haha I put him more at Rob or Steven’s age.

 

[RobDickinson]

Dropping all subsidies would require an entire reset of the American political system; an abandonment of political lobbying. Radical idea, I like it.

Stop lobbying, pay elected officials a good salary and deny them earnings or employment outside of that or in any related field to any legislature they have been involved in, no investments or ownership of companies.

Elections to be open and fair, with centralised funding - perhaps via individuals (i.e. you can elect to send your $100 to party / candidate x)

US politics is captured by industry (its not the only one). But it wont happen.

 

[Curt Renz]

I couldn't really care less if the BBB passes at this point or not...

FTFY

 

[tivoboy]

Frankly, I find this whole Elon not wanting USA subsidies to continue a bit hypocritical. They benefited greatly when others were trying to follow and if their MISSION STATEMENT is still “to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy” then they should be just as happy that other fast (or slow) followers get the same benefits and incentives that Tesla did. If not, It rings a bit hollow to me at least.

Quite the response here, I shall interpret that as that I am ON TO SOMETHING.

 

[Sofie]

More SEC forms for share sales are up on the site now. That doesn’t appear to be Elon though.

 

[MP3Mike]

More SEC forms for Elon’s share sales are up on the site now.

Just a handful of shares sold on 12/6, but not Elon selling... (At least so far.)

SEC FORM 4

www.sec.gov

SEC FORM 4

www.sec.gov

SEC FORM 4

www.sec.gov

 

[RobDickinson]

More SEC forms for share sales are up on the site now. That doesn’t appear to be Elon though.

Not for Elon?

 

[Sofie]

Just a handful of shares sold on 12/6, but not Elon selling... (At least so far.)

SEC FORM 4

www.sec.gov

SEC FORM 4

www.sec.gov

SEC FORM 4

www.sec.gov

Yeah I know I fixed it. Just three other people. It seems kind of weird though if he really didn’t sell anything yesterday or today. Mondays and Tuesdays seemed to be somewhat of the pattern at least.

 

[The Accountant]

Refers to deleted post.

To be fair, you said, "And yet as of Q4 2021, they have zero EV vehicles"
@jbcarioca was pointing out that this statement is not true.
He's correct.

 

[StealthP3D]

Btw - Does anyone have a table/chart when EV cars, from other automakers, are expected to reach market in a specific year? At scale?

Do you want the projected release timelines as published in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 or the schedule they will publish next year? Because they all look about the same in terms of how many years until EV's are released - it's always in two to three years there will be an abundance of excellent electric cars. It's a mirage designed to delay the transition to EV's. Earlier this year the EV F-150 was delayed again (to next fall). I'm guessing they might deliver some before the end of the year but not very many.

Traditionally, product delay announcements cause the stock to sell off. However, automakers can continue to delay product releases of EV models without fear of investors losing conviction (at least for now) because investors who buy Ford and GM stock are afraid of what electrification might do to their beloved companies. It's actually a relief when they delay an EV for the third time because it means more sales of the more profitable ICE cars. These companies have to pretend like they are all-in on electrification so they can be bailed out down the road.