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Did a quick measurement. The gap in giga texas is about 450,000 sqft with assumed 3 production floors and 1,200,000 sqft of production floor space it would qualify for a sizable fab. By far too much room for a warehouse. Giga is huge.

Market is open, I'll guide myself out :)
I think the gaps in Giga Texas are to get raw material or parts into specific points on the assembly line floor so they can minimize internal stockpiling. I would think a chip fab would go isolated elsewhere onsite, where the clean room environmental protocols would be easier to control.
 
Something to consider with all the chip fab talk:

There is significant political pressure now to move chip manufacturing back into the US. I would not be surprised if there are large incentives in the infrastructure bill that would make building a chip fab cost Tesla way less than the sticker price. Tesla could also partner with someone like TSMC/Samsung (like they partnered with Panasonic for Giga Nevada) if they thought they wouldn't need the whole capacity.
Totally agree. I believe Biden has promised $35B in gov incentives to bring chip making back to US. Do we know where this stands?
 
Was into my account at Fidelity to Proxy vote for the upcoming Annual Meeting and noticed that the company I retired from had deposited a little something into the 401K unbeknownst to me.

Immediately rolled it into the IRA yesterday and snagged a few chairs this morning.

Doing my part!

I do love life's pleasant little surprises. 😎
 
And I'm firmly in Cathie's camp as it appears to me that this is happening now as demand is accelerating far beyond current production.

My thought example: *if* Tesla suddenly had double the production, would they be able to satiate demand? I think hells yes.

So what amount of production would satiate current US demand? And here's where I'd agree with you. If Tesla were *currently* producing 20 to 25% of the US demand for their class of cars, I think the demand would be there. This would materialize in the form of no wait times and better economies of scale (i.e. the price would come down accordingly).
I've been thinking about the last few years of both Ford and GM and the relative collapse of their sales. I think it mostly has to do with seceding the sedan market to the asian and European markets and focusing on trucks and SUV's. But the pandemic/chip shortage really threw a wrench in things for many reasons.
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But if I dig into it more I think their collapse is going to be even faster than I thought. I think they knew for probably the last 24 months+ they need to make the shift to electric and had been planning their exits, but as we all know this is a very difficult proposition for the legacy car companies. The more they lean into electric, the less they sell on the ICE side.

I believe 2020-2022 were supposed to be the golden years for them selling ICE as they make the transition where they get the remaining max profits out of ICE before customer switch to EV's faster. The goal being the ICE trucks would fund their EV development while they were still in large demand. The chip shortage has devastated this hope though. Even though they are making more per vehicle than ever before they dont have near enough volume to make up the difference. Time keeps going by and Tesla and others hit the mainstream and are seemingly unaffected at the same degree to the chip shortage as the Big 3. So while customers still want their trucks, but they cannot buy them, and the longer they wait the sooner EV trucks get here. Their window is closing to sell vehicles people want...and they cant sell them. Ford as an example lost money last quarter on their actual vehicle production, but was saved by their financial arm. This quarter will be much worse as there are more line shutdowns, so instead of having cash to plow into EV F150 and others, they are bleeding cash given they cannot deliver or make cars without chips.

This has been covered over and over, but honestly the EV tax credit doesn't really help any of the manufacturers. It helps consumers (and me personally if I buy a model Y) save money on the cars, but I dont believe we actually need to stimulate demand for EV's, nor are they too expensive at the moment. Unless Ford and GM raise their prices dramatically to claim the credit for themselves, or they use the credit to get undesirable cars to sell its worthless. All the while Tesla makes 25% GM on each car with no tax credits and an ever growing demand problem. The dealers for the big 3 will likely mark up the vehicles in the near term to keep the credit for themselves.

Finally I have a bet with a friend of mine that one or all of the Big 3 will either file for bankruptcy or be bailed out by 2025. I am somewhat positive the government will bail them out as MI/OH are very important to both political parties. But when we do bail them out its just going to be one big sponsored jobs program because I dont see how propping them up changes their business model. I am always amazed at the bond markets appetite for crappier and crappier loans to companies in the chase for yield, but these bonds will be expensive, which only weighs more on these companies.

Anyways I keep buying Tesla and waiting.
 
Is a small fab even a thing?

I know many discount the idea due to cost, but money isn't really an issue for Tesla. We shouldn't forget that this is the same company that went from building a chopped up Lotus with laptop batteries to building AI supercomputers and humanoid robots in less than two decades. Very little would surprise me.
There will need to be a small fab for Mars. Not necessarily a cutting-edge high-volume smallest-feature biggest-wafer one. Just enough that stuff can be made without waiting on a 2-year supply chain. A good place to try it out would be on Earth before relocating it to Mars. So a smallish 'starter' fab t osee if it is possible to get low volume flexibility is interesting.

Not all chips are the same. Power semiconductors and bread-and-butter microprocessors are a completely different thing than 7nm stuff. Tesla needs the whole range, so just one fab won't meet all needs. But a flexible starter fab might create some interesting options, one day.

The last place I'd want to build a fab is within a hundred metres of a large industrial facility with banging and crashing going on all the time.
 
Is a small fab even a thing?

I know many discount the idea due to cost, but money isn't really an issue for Tesla. We shouldn't forget that this is the same company that went from building a chopped up Lotus with laptop batteries to building AI supercomputers and humanoid robots in less than two decades. Very little would surprise me.
A small fab is a thing, but it is not suited to making cutting edge chips that Tesla needs. One could buy a small fab making 10nm chips. This could indeed suit a company like Ford if they rethought everything and had a mid grade computer (like Tesla HW 2.0) in every Ford. But the cost to Tesla (and the risk) would be extreme. Tesla needs the latest cutting edge chips. Two generations back will use too much power for Tesla's uses. And it takes years to learn how to get yields up on the latest processes. Tesla probably has a good contract with a fab, and so long as they have dedicated production volume, they will be fine not going into this field. Tesla has the money to front load the contract and make it worth it for the fab treat them right.
 
My $0.02 worth on all the recurring mentions of Tesla sales compared to competitors, can we please stop focusing the comparison of Tesla's sales to sales of other EVs?? (Not disagreeing with you, @Discoducky, just responding to the thread).
No worries, but I wasn't, I was referring to Tesla taking 20 to 25% of the entire auto market share in the US.

4M+/year is what I think Tesla demand is currently for Model S3XY based on current and future competitors.

CT demand remains to be seen, but I think it is way north of 1M/year.
 
Q - after last night's tweets from Elon about it taking a year to get to volume production for Giga Berlin, what constitutes "volume production"? 250k annual deliveries? 500k?
 
Disagree. Having served on several Boards, I believe every good Board wants the Executive to succeed. They help this endeavour by identifying gaps and risks is what the Executive plans to do, or missed opportunities it should do. The Board draws on its independent experience to provide perspective and insight that the Executive lacks. That may become adversarial, but not necessarily so. A smart Executive leverages the experience of its Board.
I use not the layman’s understanding of the word “adversarial “, but the legal world’s one. As such I stand by my explanation while at the same time understandi yours.
 
Q - after last night's tweets from Elon about it taking a year to get to volume production for Giga Berlin, what constitutes "volume production"? 250k annual deliveries? 500k?

Shanghai took 10 months (in the midst of a pandemic) to hit the Model 3 targeted run rate. Tesla was targeting 250k a year and 5k per week. The first 6 months were only 50k (shutdowns and Covid in general had an impact). I'd think Berlin will be similar, but bigger numbers with the 500k goal from the beginning and hopefully the lack of shutdowns shaves off a month or two. IMO 300k is close to the high end of what to expect from Berlin in 2022 with it heavy in the last 6 months. Q4 probably won't surpass 10-15k. Austin will probably have a bit higher numbers added since it seems they are farther ahead on the Y, and the CT will be produced in 2022 as well. My guess in total ~750k with ~450-500k of that in the last 6 months.
 
A small fab is a thing, but it is not suited to making cutting edge chips that Tesla needs. One could buy a small fab making 10nm chips. This could indeed suit a company like Ford if they rethought everything and had a mid grade computer (like Tesla HW 2.0) in every Ford. But the cost to Tesla (and the risk) would be extreme. Tesla needs the latest cutting edge chips. Two generations back will use too much power for Tesla's uses. And it takes years to learn how to get yields up on the latest processes. Tesla probably has a good contract with a fab, and so long as they have dedicated production volume, they will be fine not going into this field. Tesla has the money to front load the contract and make it worth it for the fab treat them right.

My thinking is partnering with someone like TSMC plus getting significant gov incentives could alter the calculus significantly.
 
I've been thinking about the last few years of both Ford and GM and the relative collapse of their sales. I think it mostly has to do with seceding the sedan market to the asian and European markets and focusing on trucks and SUV's. But the pandemic/chip shortage really threw a wrench in things for many reasons.
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View attachment 704307
But if I dig into it more I think their collapse is going to be even faster than I thought. I think they knew for probably the last 24 months+ they need to make the shift to electric and had been planning their exits, but as we all know this is a very difficult proposition for the legacy car companies. The more they lean into electric, the less they sell on the ICE side.

I believe 2020-2022 were supposed to be the golden years for them selling ICE as they make the transition where they get the remaining max profits out of ICE before customer switch to EV's faster. The goal being the ICE trucks would fund their EV development while they were still in large demand. The chip shortage has devastated this hope though. Even though they are making more per vehicle than ever before they dont have near enough volume to make up the difference. Time keeps going by and Tesla and others hit the mainstream and are seemingly unaffected at the same degree to the chip shortage as the Big 3. So while customers still want their trucks, but they cannot buy them, and the longer they wait the sooner EV trucks get here. Their window is closing to sell vehicles people want...and they cant sell them. Ford as an example lost money last quarter on their actual vehicle production, but was saved by their financial arm. This quarter will be much worse as there are more line shutdowns, so instead of having cash to plow into EV F150 and others, they are bleeding cash given they cannot deliver or make cars without chips.

This has been covered over and over, but honestly the EV tax credit doesn't really help any of the manufacturers. It helps consumers (and me personally if I buy a model Y) save money on the cars, but I dont believe we actually need to stimulate demand for EV's, nor are they too expensive at the moment. Unless Ford and GM raise their prices dramatically to claim the credit for themselves, or they use the credit to get undesirable cars to sell its worthless. All the while Tesla makes 25% GM on each car with no tax credits and an ever growing demand problem. The dealers for the big 3 will likely mark up the vehicles in the near term to keep the credit for themselves.

Finally I have a bet with a friend of mine that one or all of the Big 3 will either file for bankruptcy or be bailed out by 2025. I am somewhat positive the government will bail them out as MI/OH are very important to both political parties. But when we do bail them out its just going to be one big sponsored jobs program because I dont see how propping them up changes their business model. I am always amazed at the bond markets appetite for crappier and crappier loans to companies in the chase for yield, but these bonds will be expensive, which only weighs more on these companies.

Anyways I keep buying Tesla and waiting.
Heard Phil Lebow use an interesting term. Buyers strike. He said he did not want to use it but.... Went on to deny Cathie Wood's speculation however. Buyers strike!

Discussion moved on to ford and F150 plants being closed and reducing shifts. They have a chip problem plus they are not making the vehicles the buyers want. It is related to chips but why.

Annualized production rate was around 18m per year back in April but now the rate is more like 13m. Is this what disruption looks like? Is the chip shortage because the fabs saw this buyers strike coming? Are chips being stockpiled by someone? Love to hear some data from the fabs.
 
Dojo is needed & cannot be bought.
FABs are not neccessary. They are only profitable to operate when operating >95% capacity 24/7/365.

Sure Tesla CAN go into FABs. But do they NEED to?

Tesla usually in-houses things that others cannot do at the amounts tesla needs, but where it is critical.
Except for Tesla it doesn’t have to be profitable. It can break even, it can even burn a bit of cash.
 
My thinking is partnering with someone like TSMC plus getting significant gov incentives could alter the calculus significantly.
That one would make a lot of sense. The US government is quite stupid, but I think they are realizing that we need some domestic chip production for security reasons. A war in East Asia could cripple our economy just from lack of access.

Perhaps the Panasonic/Tesla model as a start, with generalized production for other industries as the long term goal.
 
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My anecdotal experience supports this too. A surprising number of people who were in shock and awe when I bought a Model S in 2017 bought an EV this year. Several other friends mentioned waiting for a cheaper EV before they get a new car.

An auto broker I know is advising all his clients that they should lease new ICE cars so they aren't stuck with obsolete technology because the industry is rapidly moving to electric.