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Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

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Disengaging and pulling over is what they'd call a "minimum-risk maneuver" in self-driving terminology and is something that needs to be built in for systems actually taking liability for the DDT -- not necessarily for an incapacitated driver but in the event that a sensor is damaged or an electrical fault or any number of problems that can occur and for which redundancies need to exist.

For example if you hit a deer in a self-driving car that has no steering wheel or pedals and it takes out cameras or other components, what does the car do? It would need to be able to pull over as safely as possible, throw on the hazards, etc.

They've definitely talked about systems like this monitoring driver health too and contacting local emergency services in the event of a medical emergency or accident, kinda like OnStar.


Also discussions about mandating driver intoxication detection
A simple improvement would be for the call to trigger the new 911 crash response feature if the car has to stop due to a disengagement. If all is well, the driver can cancel the call before the timeout. If not, then help would be dispatched.

No need for the car to make any assessment for fitness or medical condition or even link to medical equipment. It could even be extended to take control of the car when in manual mode if the driver stops using the wheel and accelerator or if the car has to correct for drifting out of the lane with no subsequent control inputs.
 
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Exactly, and a hypothetical Level 5 car without a steering wheel or pedals — like the one Elon has been talking about making at Giga a Mexico (yes that was a recent claim) — wouldn’t even have driver inputs.

One of the reasons I think it’ll never happen with cameras alone, or at least not the current camera suite
Oh yeah, the current HW is far from ready for primetime. I do appreciate the foresight of Tesla leaving space for computer upgrades but the camera position is almost certainly not up for it (note how terrible it is at sensing rain on the windsheild, the cameras being blinded by the winter sun, back up camera being covered by rain, etc). This isn't to mention the inherent limits of small digital cameras (CMOS jello effect, low light wash out, dynamic range of single frame video, CMOS sun blindness, etc.) and the complete lack of time-of-flight sensors (why are we limiting the car to only what humans can do? Isn't the whole point to do better than humans...). These are just some of the hardware related challenges that Tesla faces with regard to true robotaxis.

Also, what is Tesla doing with all these Model 3 leasse turn ins from 2019/2020? You know, cause they wouldn't let owners buy out leases since by 2023 Tesla would use them as robotaxis. They have to be piling up somewhere...
 
Doesn’t it limit use of FSD to limited access highways?
I suspect you are referring to basic Autosteer. I have seen nothing to indicate this. I've seen at least one youtube video demonstrating the attention monitoring functions of basic AP on city streets.

Navigate on Autopilot feature of FSD has only operated on limited access highways and high speed rural highways. There has been no indication of this changing.

FSD beta (Autosteer on City Streets) is essentially unaffected. It still operates on all types of roads.
 
I've always wondered if there was a method to the release order of software updates. Like last night I was one of the first (and I really don't use AP all that often these days). Sometimes it takes a week or more. I know there are few tricks for forcing the car to recheck. But that doesn't seem to work consistantly.

I think it may be truly random (at least from our POV). Or since I have HW3 but no interior camera, the code was ready first 🤔
I've noticed that almost like clockwork over eight months of ownership, I tend to receive updates after ~15% of the fleet gets them according to NotATeslaApp/TeslaFi for my '23 MY w/HW3 with software update preference set to advanced. As of this post, 2% of the fleet has 2023.44.30.1. Maybe this update will roll out more quickly since it contains a recall - we'll see.
 
I've noticed that almost like clockwork over eight months of ownership, I tend to receive updates after ~15% of the fleet gets them according to NotATeslaApp/TeslaFi for my '23 MY w/HW3 with software update preference set to advanced. As of this post, 2% of the fleet has 2023.44.30.1. Maybe this update will roll out more quickly since it contains a recall - we'll see.
Are we convinced that 2023.44.30.1 contains the recall for all cars?

I got the suspension update but did not get any of the chagnes that others are seeing.

Driven ~70mi on and off the highway with 2023.44.30.1 now and no noticable changes to nags.

I do have a bit of an uncommon HW configuration. With MCU2 + FSD computer + color cameras (a complete HW3 retrofit) in a 2017 Model S. So no interior camera. We've been speculating that maybe the full recall update will come at a later date?

IMG_3258.PNG
 
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Another issue is it's not the older cars with AP1 (which is superior anyway) that have problems, but we're gonna be faced with the same BS as y'all because the NHTSA says so f that.

Why is Tesla getting a "recall" and not all the other cars that have AP2.0+ driving features‽
 
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This choo-choo plane seems to have that capability?

It still requires someone to press a button; there's no in-cabin camera or anything monitoring the pilot. On this aircraft the button is apparently located top center in the cabin, where anyone can reach it.
The idea is that aircraft like that may well be operated by a single pilot, and it's relatively cheap insurance--especially for the target market for one of these, which seems to be older rich guy with trophy wife (who wouldn't dare subject herself to something like pinch hitter lessons).

 
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Another issue is it's not the older cars with AP1 (which is superior anyway) that have problems, but we're gonna be faced with the same BS as y'all because the NHTSA says so f that.

Why is Tesla getting a "recall" and not all the other cars that have AP2.0+ driving features‽
Screenshot 2023-12-16 at 17.47.49.png

Nah. Compared to fleet size, they get in the same number of these type of collisions per capita as all other versions of AP...

Raw data: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADS.csv
 
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Sad news in my town:


Also, I saw another car in my left turn lane facing my direction on a 3 lane street each way two days ago. That person probably did not see the dividing island on the big road when making left turn or right turn from the cross street during the dark rush hour. Worse than that, after making the wrong turn that person tried to continue to navigate into the opposite traffic instead of turning on the emergency light and calling the police to stop the traffic. This was not a Tesla.

I think FSD would help people having poor vision in these cases.
 
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Oh yeah, the current HW is far from ready for primetime. I do appreciate the foresight of Tesla leaving space for computer upgrades but the camera position is almost certainly not up for it (note how terrible it is at sensing rain on the windsheild, the cameras being blinded by the winter sun, back up camera being covered by rain, etc). This isn't to mention the inherent limits of small digital cameras (CMOS jello effect, low light wash out, dynamic range of single frame video, CMOS sun blindness, etc.) and the complete lack of time-of-flight sensors (why are we limiting the car to only what humans can do? Isn't the whole point to do better than humans...). These are just some of the hardware related challenges that Tesla faces with regard to true robotaxis.

Also, what is Tesla doing with all these Model 3 leasse turn ins from 2019/2020? You know, cause they wouldn't let owners buy out leases since by 2023 Tesla would use them as robotaxis. They have to be piling up somewhere...

I was always skeptical of the robotaxi claims. Even if Tesla was able to get the software to a point where they thought the car could drive without a human at the controls, regulators likely would disagree. I've worked on embedded software, though nothing quite like an autonomous driving system. I've mapped out what it would take to do a real full self driving system and I don't think a system that would work under all conditions can be put on a car.

Aircraft can be made to fly themselves because there are vastly fewer edge conditions and where most of the edge conditions exist (around airports), there are people on the ground watching everything. People do fly without filing a flight plan, but almost all aircraft flying any distance do file one so people on the ground know where the plane is supposed to be. There are few enough aircraft in the air that they can be monitored by people on the ground.

There are vastly most cars traveling vastly more complex routes with no active outside monitoring. Then add in all the edge conditions. Other cars doing crazy things, pedestrians, animals, objects like loose balls from a playground, etc.

Then there are all sorts of weather conditions. Heavy rain, mud, snow, fog, etc. Every winter my backup camera gets pretty dirty just driving around town. It makes backing out of parking spaces more difficult, but I have an advantage over a camera on the car when I'm driving. I can move my sensor suite (eyes) around to get a better view of my surroundings. If things are really bad I can get out of the car and see what is going on. The cameras can't move with respect to the car.

One time many years ago I was stuck in the thickest fog I've ever encountered. It was so bad I mistook a mailbox for a stop sign. I knew the stop sign was close so crawled forward until I found it. Then I had to make a right turn onto a busier street. The way I made sure no cars were coming was by rolling down the window and listening for other cars. Something a camera system can't do.

Then there are many more things a nefarious actor could do. People could blind cameras with laser pointers or balloons filled with paint. Various types of sensors could be jammed electronically.

If all cars have a self driving system that can talk to all other cars and there is a central monitoring system, then driving without humans may be possible, but trying to train a computer to do the job that humans do and work in an environment with humans doing human things with no human in the loop is an almost impossible task. It will make decisions as well or better than other humans 99% of the time, but it will also get confused sometimes.

Humans get confused and do the wrong things too. If they are too bad we take away their license to drive. But humans have creativity and computers don't actually have it. AIs have been trained to emulate creativity, but they are still following a script of some kind. Present humans with a situation they didn't anticipate and a fair number will do something stupid, but quite a few will come up with something on the fly and may end up doing something brilliant nobody ever thought of. Present an AI with something it isn't programmed to handle and it will lock up.

Cases where pilots saved their passengers and sometimes their aircraft in a crisis were situations where someone did something brilliant at just the right moment that a computer was incapable of doing. For example the case of Flight 1549 which crashed on the Hudson in 2009.
US Airways Flight 1549 - Wikipedia

The pilot made a brilliant split second decision that saved everyone on board.

But then there was the Air France flight that crashed into the mid-Atlantic because a junior pilot didn't realize that their airspeed was off because the pitot tube had iced up. Humans can do the wrong thing too. A computer may not have done better though. It took a senior pilot to realize that the instruments were giving them bad data, but he realized too late.

Cars will get to a point where they can drive themselves most of the time, but I don't think we're going to get rid of the driver in most conditions any time soon. They may be able to take the driver out of the loop on open highways with limited traffic entry and exit in good weather, but even there when weather gets bad, it will be back to manual control.
 
Aircraft can be made to fly themselves because there are vastly fewer edge conditions
Airplanes have "flown themselves" for a long time because autopilots are generally glorified cruise controls. There's no intelligence or automatic decision making. They fly courses, altitudes, and speeds programmed by the pilot(s). It's a very manual process. You don't just hit "fly me there" like with FSD and you don't just dial in a destination like in a car GPS.

and where most of the edge conditions exist (around airports), there are people on the ground watching everything. People do fly without filing a flight plan, but almost all aircraft flying any distance do file one
The vast majority of airports in the US do not have "people on the ground watching everything". At these smaller airports the pilots handle it themselves using eyes and radio, just like drivers at a roundabout. And many people flying those little airplanes VFR never file flight plans no matter where they're going.
 
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Am I missing something here? I think you're referring to Trips and not odometer. You can't reset an odometer. If you bring up the menu and choose Trips, is that what you're referring to?
"trip odometer" is what I was talking about. I apologize for using the word odometer as a nickname for trip odometer. I will try to be more precise in the future.

Trips, trip odometer, odometer, what ever you want to call it, I want the resettable odometer to show tenths. Sheesh.