Tesla readies revamped Model 3

[WannabeOwner]

Model 3 Performance then real world in UK outside of summer you’ve maybe just over 200 miles, say 220 real world range

I think you should get another 20 or so more than that at a steady 70 on motorway, unless you've got Carlos Fandango wheels (I expect you are too young for that advert )... My original MS was 240 miles, and changing to the 300 mile range MS (at steady 70 MPH) has made a significant difference / reduction to charging stops. So maybe 300 real-world motorway miles is a sweet-spot - 210 miles @ 70 for 3 hours driving, and 70% of battery used

if you are going to argue for a bigger battery for longer range then your base should be the current model with the longest range.

Indeed. "Get yer wallet out and pony up" MS will give the performance and the range (albeit maybe without chuckability in the corners of M3, but I've stopped driving like that). My 2015 MS was a challenge to routinely get 3 miles / kWh ... now 4 miles / kWh is fairly readily achievable ... if efficiency (or battery density / weight reduction) increases to 5 miles / kWh I reckon that would do it.

 

[Durzel]

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect someone who doesn't own a Performance model to say...

I'm not sure I could deal with knowing there was a faster version of the car I've got, even if it was just a bit faster, that I didn't buy because I thought the one I had would be fast enough. I'm a bit weird like that though.

 

[SpareHeadOne]

How many ice cars do you know that have EPA range of 650 Plus miles? You don't need that kind of range. Nobody wants to drive for 8+ hours before taking a bathroom break. I think you're confused about wish lists versus something that's really needed for practical transportation. By the time we finish coffee, bathroom break, stretching our legs, there's 5 minutes left in our charging cycle on our model 3s with a version 3 charger. 5 minutes. That's it.

My previous car would do 800-900 miles on a tank so I could mostly go where I wanted and back without refuelling.

I understand your point, but in the UK at least not all rest stops have charging facilities and not all charging facilities are any where near rest area (Tesla's site outside of Edinburgh is in an industrial estate, for example). In my case for some of the journeys I do regularly there is a rest stop with charging and my experience is exactly as you describe; for others I either have to make an extra stop or try to cross my legs while driving.

A car with a reliable 450 miles of range would solve a lot the problems on those awkward routes, a one with a reliable 650 plus miles would solve all but the most extreme cases for me. I did read a quote from Musky saying that they could build a car with 600 miles of range, "but no-one wants that". My thought is, "Why don't you try it and find out? I certainly want one".

 

[Zilla91]

I did read a quote from Musky saying that they could build a car with 600 miles of range, "but no-one wants that". My thought is, "Why don't you try it and find out? I certainly want one".

I suspect they didn't try it because he was doing his usual thing and telling fibs

 

[Durzel]

Yup, as with everything it's just a load of bollocks. If Tesla made a 600 mile range car, even if it cost twice as much as a Model 3 does, it would sell.

Hell, they're already pitching a new type of longer distance, single motor Model 3 to the B2B market who would cream themselves for a 600+ mile range car.

 

[Adopado]

Yup, as with everything it's just a load of bollocks. If Tesla made a 600 mile range car, even if it cost twice as much as a Model 3 does, it would sell.

Hell, they're already pitching a new type of longer distance, single motor Model 3 to the B2B market who would cream themselves for a 600+ mile range car.

I don't think he necessarily meant that no one would want a 600 miles range car but that no one would want a 600 mile range EV with present battery technology ... because it would be a lump of a heavyweight thing that would be poorer at every other aspect of driving. Handling would be worse, performance would be worse, efficiency would be reduced so extended home charging required, braking would be more challenging and it would be double the price. (Fingers crossed that Amprius silicon anode battery comes up trumps and we can finally have our cake and eat it.)

 

[Sparkeur]

I genuinely don't understand the apparent requirement for 500/600 mile range batteries. During the week, my home charger deals with 50-150 mile trips and on my quarterly long distance runs from Bordeaux to South Spain, the Tesla network just deals effortlessly with the whole trip. It might (I haven't checked) take me 30 mins longer in the Tesla than my Discovery but in terms of cost, the Disco is racking up nearly 450 euros on a return trip and the Tesla is 120 euros. In the three years I've owned a Model 3, I've never been concerned about range - even during summer trips when I'm routed over the Pyrenees.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I'm not sure I could deal with knowing there was a faster version of the car I've got, even if it was just a bit faster, that I didn't buy because I thought the one I had would be fast enough. I'm a bit weird like that though.

No your not weird. Everytime I've made a step up in performance it can feel savage and fast for a bit. However if used as a daily driver it'll soon feel like you could do with a bit more performance. I mean I know they ain't slow but i still end up feeling it.

I do wonder if the Model S Plaid comes out here if that would finally be the car that I'd never get used to and start to think is too slow. I'm pretty game to try it.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I don't think he necessarily meant that no one would want a 600 miles range car but that no one would want a 600 mile range EV with present battery technology ... because it would be a lump of a heavyweight thing that would be poorer at every other aspect of driving. Handling would be worse, performance would be worse, efficiency would be reduced so extended home charging required, braking would be more challenging and it would be double the price. (Fingers crossed that Amprius silicon anode battery comes up trumps and we can finally have our cake and eat it.)

So if you are talking sports car type handling then yes. However larger sized saloon is close to do-able. The Lucid Air is both slippery enough for drag and efficient enough. A bit bigger battery still wouldn't probably ruin it, just maybe need a small step up in battery density is all.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I think you should get another 20 or so more than that at a steady 70 on motorway, unless you've got Carlos Fandango wheels (I expect you are too young for that advert )... My original MS was 240 miles, and changing to the 300 mile range MS (at steady 70 MPH) has made a significant difference / reduction to charging stops. So maybe 300 real-world motorway miles is a sweet-spot - 210 miles @ 70 for 3 hours driving, and 70% of battery used



Indeed. "Get yer wallet out and pony up" MS will give the performance and the range (albeit maybe without chuckability in the corners of M3, but I've stopped driving like that). My 2015 MS was a challenge to routinely get 3 miles / kWh ... now 4 miles / kWh is fairly readily achievable ... if efficiency (or battery density / weight reduction) increases to 5 miles / kWh I reckon that would do it.

Yes a little too young to get that reference but thanks for the video to give me reference. I understand and to be fair on a long trip I would drive or slower to eek out the range but if I drive it like I drive my Disco its close to a 200 mile range car vs a 600 one is all.

The new Model 3 I suspect will get down to a 0.20cd like the Model S. That's going to help nicely on range. If they can improve battery density, maybe not at the same time but get closer to a 100kWh battery without adding weight. Still a few more improvements they can make to the drive train and maybe they can even reduce weight a bit by switching to structural battery pack. That should get the LR probably close to 500 claimed miles and maybe 400 real world. Not all maybe I'm this refresh but just over time they'll hopefully get there.

As a guess this could all be do-able by 2030 you'd think and might well save us from the quantity of chargers the country needs if most EV's are still 200 - 250 mile real world range cars.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I'm not sure I could deal with knowing there was a faster version of the car I've got, even if it was just a bit faster

The first MS I had was Performance. After I had demoed to all my mates over the first 2 - 3 months (that's "elapsed time" not "continuously demoing 24/7/365" !!) I rarely used Performance (cooking-version-mode was plenty fast enough). Acceleration was brutal for passenger if not paying attention - e.g. if I hopped out into a tight gap on roundabout "because I could".

So when I replaced the MS I got the bog-standard version LR Raven (which is around 3.5s 0-60 ... but lacks the ability to put the power down in the astonishing way that the Performance models can ... dunno why Performance Can, and Bog Standard Can't)

Anyway ... I now find that I cannot afford not to have the Plain when it arrives on UK shores !!

I have no explanation for that!

but if I drive it like I drive my Disco its close to a 200 mile range car

Understood. "I too was young once" But my surprise is that you get to be able to drive like that on UK motorways ... I have the occasional short bit of moving along more swiftly, but its only for a very small percentage of my journey, and journeys usually have long stretches of 50 MPH (roadworks / traffic) - which does wonder for my range (and rage!)

As a guess this could all be do-able by 2030

I think it is likely that EV makers have had most of the low-hanging-fruit, so further improvements will, mostly, be harder / smaller ... but I've been driving Tesla since 2015 - same time interval as from now to 2030 - and the improvements in that period have been huge. So 2030 may be pessimistic ...

 

[ACarneiro]

I think it is likely that EV makers have had most of the low-hanging-fruit,

You may be right, but research into the battery side of things has only really started in earnest over the last decade or so.
I am hoping it's still a fairly new technology and that there will be quite significant advances over a relatively short period of time.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I am hoping it's still a fairly new technology and that there will be quite significant advances over a relatively short period of time

Yes, good point. With new tech its likely that someone will stumble over an opportunity (or falling cost enables something that was prohibitively expensive until then). That's unlikely with 100 year old mature tech like ICE ...

 

[MrBadger]

i am always baffled when people say that hydrogen is the way forward.

How can you have a process which involves additional steps to be more efficient than the one which does not have these additional steps?

makes very little to no sense

More than one way to skin a cat...

Stumbled on this alternative to hydrogen fuel cell by Toyota. eg 5kg hydrogen gives 300 mile range and a useful 90 second refuelling time. Planning on 200k cars on road by 2025 and 800k by 2030. Might not tick everyone's boxes, but imho lots of potential to quieten the EV critics if its all realised. Hoping it wasn't an April fool...

 

[Jason71]

More than one way to skin a cat...

Stumbled on this alternative to hydrogen fuel cell by Toyota. eg 5kg hydrogen gives 300 mile range and a useful 90 second refuelling time. Planning on 200k cars on road by 2025 and 800k by 2030. Might not tick everyone's boxes, but imho lots of potential to quieten the EV critics if its all realised. Hoping it wasn't an April fool...

maybe watch this before you get too excited.

 

[LiamPope]

maybe watch this before you get too excited.

Was gonna mention that, lol! Seems to be a lot of info presented unclearly/out of correct context in the video MrBadger linked. 300 miles range from 5 kg hydrogen is a figure taken from their Mirai fuel cell car. That's equivalent to something like 70-odd UKMPG. No hydrogen burning IC engine is doing 70 MPG. Not even that little Yaris engine they are running on hydrogen comes close, and that V8 nowhere near - at 19 MPG for the regular petrol version you'll get less than 100 miles from 5 kg hydrogen in a comparable car.

Sad, cos I'm all for ICE's enduring, especially V8's, at least till I'm dead!

 

[FastLaneJB]

So it seems larger capacity batteries are coming faster than expected with CATL announcing 500kWh per kg which is roughly double compared to current batteries. So they could either half the weight of the battery or double the range.

Of course this is going to be very expensive initially so won't be in Model 3 for a while but point is that larger ranges are coming. They'll get a 150kWh battery in a Model 3 and it'll either weight the same or less than it does now. Of course just needs price to drop enough. Maybe they'll offer a Longer Range Performance at some point

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Yup, as with everything it's just a load of bollocks. If Tesla made a 600 mile range car, even if it cost twice as much as a Model 3 does, it would sell.

Hell, they're already pitching a new type of longer distance, single motor Model 3 to the B2B market who would cream themselves for a 600+ mile range car.

I think such a car would target an awfully small niche. It'd cost double, be freakishly heavy, have lower efficiency around town, and would take as much as 2 hours to fast-charge. I really cannot imagine -wanting- to drive for 8 hours nonstop without at least a 15 minute bathroom break which is exactly what you do for long distance travel in the existing car - drive 3 hours, pause for 20 min then drive another 3 hours. Peeing into a cup to save that short pause is... kinda extreme

 

[FastLaneJB]

I think such a car would target an awfully small niche. It'd cost double, be freakishly heavy, have lower efficiency around town, and would take as much as 2 hours to fast-charge. I really cannot imagine -wanting- to drive for 8 hours nonstop without at least a 15 minute bathroom break which is exactly what you do for long distance travel in the existing car - drive 3 hours, pause for 20 min then drive another 3 hours. Peeing into a cup to save that short pause is... kinda extreme

Seems you missed my post just above. CATL are launching this year batteries with twice the energy density. You'd be right on expensive at least initially but it'll drop in price. Very wrong on it weighing more or being very inefficient.

You are missing the point. There's plenty of places I could stop for a break and the toilet that don't have a charger. There's chargers where I could stop that they have no toilets or a place to buy a drink or eat. You are forced to plan your trip around charging vs with a long range ICE you plan your trip to do whatever the hell you want safe in the knowledge you can fill up in 5 minutes easily from a plentiful amount of locations. Can still stop in an ICE to stretch your legs but you won't always have to be filling up your car.

I imagine short range cars will still exist if you only want a short range one. That's fine but I'll pay more for one that has closer to ICE range thanks when they hit the market.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Seems you missed my post just above. CATL are launching this year batteries with twice the energy density. You'd be right on expensive at least initially but it'll drop in price. Very wrong on it weighing more or being very inefficient.

You are missing the point. There's plenty of places I could stop for a break and the toilet that don't have a charger. There's chargers where I could stop that they have no toilets or a place to buy a drink or eat. You are forced to plan your trip around charging vs with a long range ICE you plan your trip to do whatever the hell you want safe in the knowledge you can fill up in 5 minutes easily from a plentiful amount of locations. Can still stop in an ICE to stretch your legs but you won't always have to be filling up your car.

I imagine short range cars will still exist if you only want a short range one. That's fine but I'll pay more for one that has closer to ICE range thanks when they hit the market.

I hear you, but first off the CATL thing seems a bit optimistic given it's 2x past what ever other well motivated group have been able to actually bring to market (and it doesn't exist yet despite promises it's coming this year).

Second, assuming the existence of a 2x denser battery tech that also has decent charging time, longevity, safety, temperature tolerance, and costs... you still have to trade off: Do you want a car that's 500 pounds lighter and thus more efficient all-the-time, or do you want a heavier less efficient car that can offer that joyous 8 hour non-stop pee-in-a-cup marathon drive? The answer to your tangent of "but what if there's no charger in a good convenient spot" is to Drive A Tesla with the best charging network on the planet.