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Tesla/Ecotricity row - Evening Standard

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Of course the article had to end with the bollocks about electricity being far from climate friendly. UK mix is less than 40% coal and then nighttime mix has wind surplus issues with which PEVs could help.

Also interesting mention in the article about the possibility of having a technical center in the UK, in the Midlands. The UK has a lot of automotive design engineerig expertise.
 
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Power upgrades will be needed if phase 3 is going to stand a chance. Hopefully Tesla is working on that process now. 2-stall systems aren't even going to be sufficient for Model S owners at certain times of the holiday calendar.
All SuperChargers are 3-phase connected. They transform 3-phase AC into DC for your battery.

Very, very few Superchargers in the U.S. have battery pack power buffering yet, and, yes, most have 250 to 500 kW connections (quarter to half megaWatt).

All European SuperChargers I've seen so far have a 500kW grid connection without any battery pack. I think it's something Tesla is still working out and testing.

But on the longer run this will be required. Take a 100kW grid connection and a 200kWh buffer. This will become mandatory for not only SCs, but for any larger Quick Charger installation.
 
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But on the longer run this will be required. Take a 100kW grid connection and a 200kWh buffer. This will become mandatory for not only SCs, but for any larger Quick Charger installation.

For a moderately busy, 8-Stall Supercharger, realistic numbers are probably more like a 250 kW (kVA) connection with 500-1,000 kWh storage. 200 kWh is only about a 4-6 charge buffer...
 
For a moderately busy, 8-Stall Supercharger, realistic numbers are probably more like a 250 kW (kVA) connection with 500-1,000 kWh storage. 200 kWh is only about a 4-6 charge buffer...
From a recent presentation, the smallest commercial energy storage unit ("building block") Tesla offers is 400kWh (it's what's at Tejon Ranch). The Fremont factory has 2MWh of storage from having 5 of these units (with plans to expand to 4MWh in near future).

http://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...ergy-Storage-We-Should-All-Be-Thinking-Bigger
 
For a moderately busy, 8-Stall Supercharger, realistic numbers are probably more like a 250 kW (kVA) connection with 500-1,000 kWh storage. 200 kWh is only about a 4-6 charge buffer...
From a recent presentation, the smallest commercial energy storage unit ("building block") Tesla offers is 400kWh (it's what's at Tejon Ranch). The Fremont factory has 2MWh of storage from having 5 of these units (with plans to expand to 4MWh in near future).

http://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...ergy-Storage-We-Should-All-Be-Thinking-Bigger

Ok, so let's assume 400kWh then. It doesn't really change the discussion.

If 'competitors' want to offer QuickCharging solutions on the same premises they will have to do something with local energy storage to demand less from the grid. It's pretty unrealistic that we simply demand from the grid that it can put out 500kW ~ 1MW for larger installations. The grid has it's limitations as well.
 
any plant I've worked at, or seen, had it's own transformer(s).

Even the local MacDonalds restaurant here has it's own high-voltage transfo, 640KVA.


in general, 500kw is peanuts for the grid.





I don't fully agree. In Amsterdam I know of datacenters not being build (1MW) because of the local grid restrictions.

Next to the fact that these spikes on the grid aren't desirable it's also costly. A steady 100kW draw from the grid is a lot cheaper then peaking to 500kW for 30 minutes.
 
Next to the fact that these spikes on the grid aren't desirable it's also costly. A steady 100kW draw from the grid is a lot cheaper then peaking to 500kW for 30 minutes.

I don't know how it works in Europe, but in the U.S., most commercial electric accounts are charged for kWh used (energy cost) and peak kW used (infrastructure delivery cost). The peak kW is usually measured over 15 minute intervals. This sort of rate structure recognizes that there is a cost to the basic production of the electrical energy, but also a cost (amortized into a monthly charge) for the infrastructure needed to deliver the peak power demand.

This peak kW part of the electric bill is the perfect economic feedback that is one of driving forces for implementation of local energy storage.

Watch the video in this page, DemandLogic Demand Response - Commercial Solar Solutions, from Tesla's sister company, SolarCity, to see how energy storage demand shaving combined with solar PV can help. For the Supercharger, storage is even more effective because of peakiness of the charging loads.
 
I don't know how it works in Europe, but in the U.S., most commercial electric accounts are charged for kWh used (energy cost) and peak kW used (infrastructure delivery cost). The peak kW is usually measured over 15 minute intervals. This sort of rate structure recognizes that there is a cost to the basic production of the electrical energy, but also a cost (amortized into a monthly charge) for the infrastructure needed to deliver the peak power demand.

This peak kW part of the electric bill is the perfect economic feedback that is one of driving forces for implementation of local energy storage.

Watch the video in this page, DemandLogic Demand Response - Commercial Solar Solutions, from Tesla's sister company, SolarCity, to see how energy storage demand shaving combined with solar PV can help. For the Supercharger, storage is even more effective because of peakiness of the charging loads.
A similar situation exists in Europe. The grid and energy supplier are different companies, but in this case it's the grid which charges you more for peak usage.

So a 100 or 200kW grid connection is a lot cheaper then a 500kW connection.

So to get this back to the Ecotricity vs Tesla discussion: We'll see this more often as we get more locations. Local buffering of energy will be required I think to be able to support Quick Chargers.
 
A similar situation exists in Europe. The grid and energy supplier are different companies, but in this case it's the grid which charges you more for peak usage.

So a 100 or 200kW grid connection is a lot cheaper then a 500kW connection.

So to get this back to the Ecotricity vs Tesla discussion: We'll see this more often as we get more locations. Local buffering of energy will be required I think to be able to support Quick Chargers.

To add a litte information:
1. Most major new SCs in Norway (6 or 8 bays) had to get a new transformer in order to provide enough power.
2. There is 1 charger for each 2 bays.
3. 1 charger (the newer ones) are at 135KW.
4. For a 8 bay SC location this means 4*135KW power need. Or 540KW or 0.54MW.
5. As your population of cars grow you will see full utilization of all bays. We are already at these levels here in Norway with queuing happening frequently at some SCs.
6. A battery pack in the SC setup would need to be seriously large in order to have any useful effect when the SC is experiencing constant use on all bays.
7. Tesla has paid for the upgrade of the local infrastructure. (According to newspaper articles in the local paper for the area where the new SCs have been built).
8. Tesla has usually also added in spare capacity both in the infrastructure and the parking lot to allow for future installation of a pair of 22KW type2 outlets or a ChaDeMo or Combo stall.
9. Local landlord or similar is believed to have demanded that only some (2 or 4) of (4,6 or 8) bays be reserved for Tesla. The others usually marked with P - max 30 or 45 minutes. Consensus in other forums that as landlord sees actual use of more than the reserved bays they will change the signs for more to be reserved for Teslas. This is the situation at many SCs in Denmark, Germany and Netherlands - and lately at some Norwegian SCs too. Usually the landlord also owns/operates the local shop/café and wants to ensure maximum use of the parking area.

So - back to UK/Ecotricity/Tesla issue:
Tesla must be ready to pay for infrastructure upgrade. If a site has too little available power due to insufficient cabling over a significant distance I understand that the cost of upgrading will be high - then find another site. If not - then reason with Ecotricity or the landlord.

My family did a road trip in our Tesla from Norway, via Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and France to UK this summer. Return via same countries + Sweden. We used SCs where possible. In the UK we arrived via the chunnel, used the SC in London, then drove to York, Chester and back to London. En route in UK we used Ecotricity and ChargeYourCar chargers (22kw). They all worked fine as long as we were able to get them opened. As this trip was on a whim we did not have any "membership" cards for any of the 22 UK charging networks. We did however always get very good help from Ecotricity and ChargeYourCar who remotely opened chargers for us (or directed us to another charger that did have the remote option). I do look forward to the day when all of these charging networks have consolidated (merged or othervise) or have made alliances or roaming agreements. I do not plan to drive around Europe with a big stack of cards in order to charge when we go "off the highways" and get too far away from the SCs.
8.
 
This part of the article makes it sound like Tesla owners can't recharge their cars while away from home, which obviously is not true because Tesla has built multiple SCs in Britain.

Quote: "And while lawyers rack up fees, the dream of electric motoring in Britain is starting to fade. Not just because Tesla owners can’t recharge quickly on motorways..."

Maybe they mean that Tesla's SCs are not optimally placed on motorways in locations where people are used to stopping for petrol?