TEPCO/CHAdeMO Level III "quick" charging station/connector

[AndrewBissell]

TEPCO Level III "quick" charging station/connector

Exactly - power is what counts. The Roadsters power electronic handle 40kW during regen braking (from 3-phase electric motor to battery) so they should in principle be able to take 40kW from 3-phase mains electricity and charge the battery.

Having said that, the battery may be ok with short bursts of 40kW regen but less happy with hour long 40kW charging events. And of course the PEM is not wired for this - I'm just saying that it seems to contain electronics that could do the job without adding anything substantially more.

 

[TEG]

The Roadsters power electronic handle 40kW during regen braking...

This vid seems to show not quite 40kW... perhaps 37kW:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz23RaVtdqI[/media]

 

[Tdave]

I think it's 37 kW at 70 mph. Regen (in kW) drops as speed drops. I would bet that if you went up to 90 mph or 100 mph and lifted the accelerator, the regen would be a bit higher, perhaps touching 40 kW.

 

[TEG]

Along with everything else there is the need to cool the ESS during some charging situations (e.g. high ambient temps). Even if the PEM can do 40kW charging, it is possible that the existing cooling system couldn't sustain that for long periods of time under all conditions. I don't know for sure - just an idea.

 

[GSP]

Right now for battery nominal voltage
Roadster (53kWh) : 375V
Volt (16kWh): 366V
Leaf (24kWh): 346V
iMIEV (16kWh): 330V

So far 400V is probably okay, but it can become a problem for cars reaching way past the 200-300 mile range (using something akin to the 80-100kWh battery like in the 300 mile Model S).

I agree the problem is mainly for future cars with higher capacity batteries. These are the cars that the standard quick charger interface will have to serve. Although it could be difficult to charge a Roadster at 50 kW with only 25v higher potential.

I also agree that it really is just an on-board vs. off-board charger issue. On-board seems to be the way to go for level 1&2. Maybe it will be for level 3 also. If so, 400v 3-phase AC will be a better standard for fast charging.

GSP

 

[Doug_G]

I would assume rapid charging might also be an issue for battery lifetime? After all, if discharging very fast is bad for it, so must be charging.

 

[TEG]

That tends to be that case, but is being worked on...

http://www.pikeresearch.com/blog/battery-switching-to-compete-with-fast-charging

...Fast charging (using the batteries to supply power to the grid, or V2G) can shorten the battery life, but it is an issue that is being furiously worked on. I have spoken with several of the top battery companies and EV charging equipment vendors (some of which that have had dealings with Better Place) who say that improvements in battery chemistry being tested in labs today indicate that fast charging won’t be a problem for long...

Details on Nissan Leaf battery pack, including how recharging speed affects battery life

...How you recharge the pack will affect its life. Nissan has said it expects to Leaf drivers to have around 70 to 80 percent capacity left in the pack after ten years. What will get drivers to the upper or lower end of that range? The amount of fast charging one does. With regular Level 2 charging, drivers should expect 80 percent live left in the battery. With a lot of Level 3 charging – two or three times a day – the pack will only be at the 70 percent level. Level 3 charging is appealing because it can get the battery from zero to 80 percent full in under 30 minutes, but there is a very clear drawback if it becomes a habit...

 

[doug]

Looks like there's now one in Portland. They're claiming it's "North America's first public-use quick-charge station". Is the Vacaville one not for public use?

Nation's first public quick-charge station opens up in Portland, OR - ABG

 

[doug]

Report: U.S. to conduct tests of CHAdeMO chargers - ABG

 

[dpeilow]

Seems like it has already been "tried" out. This is a full scale deployment...


If SAE wants to get its system out there, they'd better be quick. If you are going to have J1772 for level 2 charging, then the J1772 level 3 DC spec is much better than having a completely separate socket. See here.

 

[dsm363]

Is the Leaf the only car that can use this plug (or can it)?

 

[dpeilow]

I think the i-MiEVs here in the UK can, not sure about their US cousins.

 

[TEG]

I think the i-MiEVs here in the UK can, not sure about their US cousins.

If you look back through this thread you see that the US test fleet of early i-MiEVs were using the CHAdeMO so one would assume that the production models are likely to get that option too.

 

[benji4]

The Japanese version of Google Maps shows world-wide CHAdeMO locations:

http://maps.google.co.jp/maps/ms?hl...0x34674e0fd77f192f:0xf54275d47c665244, 0&z=2

Zoom the map in on Japan, amazing density of the stations starting to show up. There are at least 3 cars sold now in Japan that can use CHAdeMO:

1) Mitsubishi i-MiEV (actually starting to see a number of these driving around now, very popular as a fleet car)
2) Nissan Leaf
3) Subaru Stella

Here we see the Subaru Stella getting charged a CHAdeMO charge point at a highway rest area:

 

[AndrewBissell]

Hi Benji

Two questions:

1. Are the Chademo stations being used for long distance EV trips (I mean real use, not PR stunts)?
2. Are Tesla owners upset not to be able to use this widening set of fast charge locations?

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Hi Benji

Two questions:

1. Are the Chademo stations being used for long distance EV trips (I mean real use, not PR stunts)?
2. Are Tesla owners upset not to be able to use this widening set of fast charge locations?

Thanks

Andrew

One more question if I may... do these sites also support Level 1 or Level 2 charging?

 

[benji4]

more on CHAdeMO in Japan

Great questions, I'll do my best to answer:

1. Are the Chademo stations being used for long distance EV trips (I mean real use, not PR stunts)?
No PR stunt here, this is the real deal. With CHAdeMO you can get 50 miles of charge with a 15-minute pit stop. i-MiEV owners are gradually starting to get out of the city as the stations go up. (CHAdeMO means 'chare on the move', but in Japanese also means 'why not have a cup of tea' while you fill up).

2. Are Tesla owners upset not to be able to use this widening set of fast charge locations?
Yes, I for one, am pretty upset that I was told there would be Tesla high-powered stations going up all over the country, and as yet I think there are maybe 4 or so installed total (including the one you can use for free at the Tesla showroom). The one gas station I know that has a Tesla high-powered charging station here charges $25 to use it for half an hour!!!

3. Do these sites also support Level 1 or Level 2 charging?
Sadly, most of the don't I fear. I just went down to a Mitsubishi dealership right down the street from me here to research this question, and they have a CHAdeMO charger right in front for people to plug into for free. There was just a single CHAdeMO connector on it along with a start button and stop button.

Here is a link to a company that sells CHAdeMO charging stations. Looks like about $30,000 for one of them:
http://www.takaoka.co.jp/product/ev/english_ev.html
***************************************************

The one on the website looks pretty much exactly like the one I just saw at the Mitsubishi dealer, just one connector. Since all of the Japanese EV makers (Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Subaru so far) support CHAdeMO, level 1 and 2 charging is not neccessary at the quick charge points. No need for it. Toyota's upcoming offerings will support it as well of course, so unfortunately Tesla is the odd man out here. While I may be able to boast about my Roadster's 200 mile plus range, and i-MiEV driver can simply make a couple of 15 minute pit stops, beat my range, and eventually leave me stranded out somewhere on the highway. Sure, I'd be stranded in style, but better to be able charge up I think. This is a situation that I really, really help Tesla will rectify at some point....

Japan has the right idea here -- during the night while they sleep, drivers will charge there cars with level 1 or 2 charging at home, but when they are out on the road, they can pull in for a 15 minute pit stop and charge up for the rest of their trip. I think a lot of Leafs, i-MiEVs, and the others are going to sell pretty well because of this (and not to mention $6.00 per gallon gas, but 6 cent per kw/H charging during the night).

 

[AndrewBissell]

Benji - thanks for the answers. Seems to be some work for Tesla to do to keep it's Japanese customers happy in the short term; and, longer term (as fast-charge DC gets implemented all over Europe and the US), to keep all it's customers happy.

Ideally, when Tesla eventually offers a J1772 switchout for the charging port, they will adopt the new J connector with DC along with a CHAdeMO to new J converter cable (assuming these are allowed). Alternatively a PEM upgrade with a CHAdeMO port on the opposite side of the car to the existing charge port would be a great step.

When buying the Roadster I always saw being marooned with older standard charging as a key risk. I hope, based on Tesla's willingness to sell upgrades and really support their owner community, that this will tun out to be a non-issue.

@Benji: What sort of out of town extended range trips are iMiEV, LEAF and Stella drivers taking? Sunday drives, vacation roadtrips, work-related driving e.g. traveling salesman, inter-city driving? Also, can you point us at any drivers own stories of such trips (on blogs, forums or video)? Thanks!

 

[benji4]

Hi Andrew, yes, there is definately some work for Tesla to do here regarding the fast charging issue. Speaking to Tesla sales people here, it seems they are trying very hard to get places to put in Tesla high-powered charging stations in for them, but it's proving harder than they thought initially because everybody else is moving to CHAdeMO. I'll try to do some more investigating about the experience of i-MiEV and Stella drivers -- LEAF is just getting rolled out now, but soon they will be on the streets as well. I stopped by the Mitsubishi dealer again today to look a bit closer at the i-MiEV -- it has one charge port on either side of the car which seems like a pretty reasonable solution. I guess the Roaster would need a pretty serious upgrade to use this with the current PEM, or maybe even a new PEM in addition to the added charge port? I'd be a buyer though if it allows me to use this growing network of CHAdeMO charge points extending my range to nation wide. Time with tell if CHAdeMO becomes standard in the US, but looks like at least even-money now that it will happen... anyway, I will try to research more and get some input from drivers using CHAdeMO here. So far I have just read two pieces saying that i-MiEV fleet use has exploded since they started offering chick charging, but I'll see if I can find anything from the horse's mouth to confirm that. Anothing interesting point is that until recently, Mitsubishi dealers offered free charging to Roadster drivers since 200V/15amp and 100V/15amp chargers were available at all Mitsubishi dealers, but apparently they are now swapping these out for CHAdeMO! I'll see if I can get more information about that as well (Nissan is also coming online with a nation-wide charging network, so I'll try to pay them a visit too).

Quick charging really is a game-changer for EVs, and in the case of the Roadster, you could have a 500 pound battery pack instead of 1000pounds which would give you maybe 60% of the current range on a single charge, but, you'd get all these benefits -->

1) Unlimited actual range since you can stop anywhere for a 15 to 30 minute charge.
2) Improved acceleration
3) Better handling (since the weight ratio of the car comes closer to an idea 50-50)
4) Replacement battery pack at half the cost

It's all wins! Big, heavy battery packs may become a thing of the past.... Tesla, what are we waiting for? (probably to see which method becomes the global standard, so I guess 6 or 7 more months before that gets finalized)

 

[jkirkebo]

Quick charging really is a game-changer for EVs, and in the case of the Roadster, you could have a 500 pound battery pack instead of 1000pounds which would give you maybe 60% of the current range on a single charge, but, you'd get all these benefits -->

2) Improved acceleration

No, acceleration would in fact be MUCH worse as a smaller pack would not be able to supply the power needed. You'd have to go to a different chemistry like A123 for that to work but then range would be halved again and you'd be left with 30%...