Supercharging Nightmare Begins

[jboy210]

..Tesla is using their Superchargers as a sales tool to sell to urban dwellers who they know damn well don’t have access to home or work charging.

That is the purpose of the Urban, lower current superchargers. I find those are usually empty by me (Northern California) while the higher speed, full superchargers are busy and some even have valets. Hopefully the Urban superchargers will expand to your area soon. I use them often when visiting clients in the Silicon Valley or Central Valley. In 20 minutes (or one latte at Starbucks) they add 100+ miles of range.

 

[gnuarm]

Old timer here. People have been predicting the impending collapse of the supercharger network for 4 years. So far, just some isolated areas of congestion.

Lol, by that rational there will never be any new problems in all of mankind. Great thinking you!

 

[gnuarm]

This is TESLA, people. They literally ALWAYS over-promise and under-deliver.

There's no point in whining about how they promised to double the supercharging network whenever and then they haven't done it yet. The reality is the reality, we have to make due. The way to make due is to:
- try to schedule your supercharging use to avoid high traffic times as much as possible
- use home or work charging as much as possible
- charge only as much as you need
- use an ICE or hybrid when you can't risk getting delayed or stranded by supercharger problems

The more EVs on the road, the more demand there is to government and industry to build out additional charging stations to relive the burden on superchargers. So... when I say that the charging network will expand, I'm not just talking about what Tesla does or promises, I'm talking about the entire society shift to allow more charging everywhere. There will be some growing pains for sure, but overall we WANT more EVs and fewer ICE cars on the roads so let's try to see the bright side of things.

There seems to be an attitude with the longer term owners that Tesla is Tesla and it doesn't matter that they aren't ready for prime time. I completely fail to understand that thinking. Yes, I'm still glad I bought the car and I enjoy the heck out of driving it. My point is that they are going to reach the end of a viable market with that approach very quickly. The vast majority of the car driving population don't really give a durn about pollution or the other aspects of driving BEVs if it costs them even a little in convenience. It will be a sliding scale but going forward Tesla wants to sell millions of cars and with each 100,000 sold the level of resistance will get higher. Combine that with the short term lead they have in the market and it creates an imperative for Tesla to establish a rock solid base of charging.

It's not about what people have accepted in the past or what is acceptable now. In five years Tesla will need to continue a charging network dominance because they will no longer have any significant advantage in the cars as every car maker and his brother has perfectly good BEVs available and likely at a lower price.

In other words, thinking that the market will continue as it has in the past will sink a company like Tesla. Then your free Supercharging will vanish! So don't be smug about Tesla. Encourage them to stay on top of the charging market and the car market will follow.

 

[gnuarm]

Yes!! When all hotels have L2 charging, that will make a big difference. We drove 180 miles to Boston last week, and stayed at a hotel with a 30a L2 charger. Didn't need any supercharging, although we did stop for dinner at Five Guys in Manchester and charged a little on the way home.

Absolutely. I visited New Orleans and Houston this summer and I visited one hotel because of Supercharging a short drive away. I gave them a favorable review but said it would be nice if they had charging on the lot. They replied thanking me for my review and said they *did* have charging! lol I missed out because I didn't ask and they didn't have any indication. I have since tried checking out their web site and called the 800 number to find they can't tell you about charging unless you actually call or dig through the web pages for individual hotels! So accommodations still need to be a bit more proactive about promoting the charging they do have.

On a route I often drive the only charging is a destination charger at a hotel. Last time I used it was Thanksgiving weekend and all three cables were in use giving only a third of the total rate to any car. Not very useful. Destination charging is no substitute for Supercharging.

 

[gnuarm]

Never said that once. Plus correct me if I'm wrong.

My issue (I'll explain it once again) is with people buying a Tesla (or any EV) knowing they have no charging option at home and then acting all dumbfounded when they have issues finding charging or waiting for a charger. If you live in San Fran and have no at home charging system (whether it's by choice or due to your living situation) you should have ordered a huge box of patience along with your car because even I know that would be a nightmare and I live in South FL.

This is nothing to do with being an early adopter. It's just plain old common sense.

No different than moving to Buffalo, NY and then acting all dumbfounded with the amount of snow you need to shovel.

In defense of the people you want to condemn... when you buy a car from Tesla they don't give accurate information on the range and charging issues. With a 120 mile route each way , I fully expected a 290 mile range to be enough for a round trip. As it turns out in a real scenario it's not even close and I've never yet made this trip without needing significant charging, mostly because the mileage is very unrealistic. The mantra I get here is to "learn" my car and what range I can expect. Well, I can't bloody well learn it until I've bought it can I? So don't be quick to condemn those who are caught by surprise at the difference between the expectation and the reality.

I will also point out that not one person I know or have met would even consider buying a Tesla based on what I can share with them about my experience. Common sense will tell people to not buy BEVs because they are so hard to keep charged.

 

[gnuarm]

That is the purpose of the Urban, lower current superchargers. I find those are usually empty by me (Northern California) while the higher speed, full superchargers are busy and some even have valets. Hopefully the Urban superchargers will expand to your area soon. I use them often when visiting clients in the Silicon Valley or Central Valley. In 20 minutes (or one latte at Starbucks) they add 100+ miles of range.

Perhaps I don't know the facts. I thought that all Superchargers will give about 75 kW when full. The higher speed Superchargers only give 120 kW when only one of the pair is in use. That's why they are numbered 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A... When both A and B are in use the power level drops to 75 kW or so, no?

 

[ReddyLeaf]

Perhaps I don't know the facts. I thought that all Superchargers will give about 75 kW when full. The higher speed Superchargers only give 120 kW when only one of the pair is in use. That's why they are numbered 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A... When both A and B are in use the power level drops to 75 kW or so, no?

Close. The first car in the pair gets the max it can accept (which definitely depends on temperature, state of charge, battery age, size of battery, and maybe even maintenance of the nozzle) and then the second car gets 135KW-first car rate. If car A arrived at 50% SOC, it might only pull 75KW thus leaving 60 KW for carB. Last week I arrived at 10% SOC, just after X100D. Unfortunately all stalls full, so I got 20 KW for about 30 min until the X finally started slowing down. I checked the dashboard on the X and it was charging at 115-120 KW. My bad luck, because if it had been a 2013 S60 at 50% SOC, I would have received closer to 80 KW initially. There are a multitude of options, so you don’t really know until you plug in.

 

[gnuarm]

Close. The first car in the pair gets the max it can accept (which definitely depends on temperature, state of charge, battery age, size of battery, and maybe even maintenance of the nozzle) and then the second car gets 135KW-first car rate. If car A arrived at 50% SOC, it might only pull 75KW thus leaving 60 KW for carB. Last week I arrived at 10% SOC, just after X100D. Unfortunately all stalls full, so I got 20 KW for about 30 min until the X finally started slowing down. I checked the dashboard on the X and it was charging at 115-120 KW. My bad luck, because if it had been a 2013 S60 at 50% SOC, I would have received closer to 80 KW initially. There are a multitude of options, so you don’t really know until you plug in.

Perhaps you can explain to me how the SoC affects charging rate. I've never seen anything on most chargers other than full 100+ kW. It doesn't drop off significantly until I reach perhaps 75%. Even then it remains around 100 kW until the last 15%. So charging to 90% is always pretty fast.

Is the rate lower because you are starting at 50% while charging from 10-20% the rate doesn't drop off at 50%?

 

[Eevee]

There seems to be an attitude with the longer term owners that Tesla is Tesla and it doesn't matter that they aren't ready for prime time. I completely fail to understand that thinking.

I'm not excusing their behavior. I'm saying that it's irrational to expect them to behave differently. When you have data point after data point that says 'X company says Y but does Z' it's unreasonable to expect them to do Y.

Whining that an alcoholic drinks too much is just being a whiner, its not going to change anything. And being shocked or angry about how much they drink is totally pointless.

Tesla as a brand has consistently over-promised and under-delivered. It's not OK. But it's illogical to expect them to do differently. Whining that they didn't meet their target with supercharger expansion is just whining, it's not productive, and it's irrational to expect anything else from Tesla.

 

[Peteski]

The problem is that statement is false today. Tesla published this blog posts which indicates just the opposite.

"...
In addition, many sites will be built further off the highway to allow local Tesla drivers to charge quickly when needed, with the goal of making charging ubiquitous in urban centers.
..."

Source URL = Charging Is Our Priority

Ah I see. So now Tesla are encouraging people to buy Teslas without access to their own chargers. Well I'm afraid those people (like the OP for example) are going to be in for a bit of a shock when they will inevitably have to line-up to charge their cars. Longer term owners out on road trips will also have to get used to lining up with this new wave of EV adopters. Imagine if every Tesla owner relied 100% on Superchargers for all their charging needs? It would be complete chaos at the charging stations.

 

[juliusa]

Lol, by that rational there will never be any new problems in all of mankind. Great thinking you!

No, just pointing out that this is simply the latest prediction of the implosion of the supercharger network.

This is nonsense, of course. Of the 650 or so US locations, perhaps a dozen are busy? And there are superchargers under construction near by?

Just like all the newbies that are looking at their first market correction and think the world is coming to an end. Take a deep breath - it will be fine.

 

[2012MS85]

I recommend a nice road trip like I just took to bring my "new" 2012 Signature P85 home. We had to hit 20 Superchargers between Seattle and Davenport, Iowa, and I was amazed that we were the solo Tesla at 17 of our stops (that had between 4 and 8 SCs). Two stops had one other Tesla, and we once ran into two other Teslas. I had worried that we might arrive at a "full" SC location and have to wait, but was pleasantly surprised that rural SCs still have no such issue. Good luck with solving this urban problem

 

[KJD]

There seems to be an attitude with the longer term owners that Tesla is Tesla and it doesn't matter that they aren't ready for prime time. I completely fail to understand that thinking. Yes, I'm still glad I bought the car and I enjoy the heck out of driving it. My point is that they are going to reach the end of a viable market with that approach very quickly. The vast majority of the car driving population don't really give a durn about pollution or the other aspects of driving BEVs if it costs them even a little in convenience.

The best way to solve the convenience problem is install a power outlet at your parking spot. The fact that I never have to go to a gas station is one of the biggest advantages of owning an EV.

Plug it in every night. Charge the car while I sleep. Start the day with a full tank of electrons. Easy and convenient.

 

[Oldschool496]

Believe it or not, it sort of does actually. 100mph+ seems to be the break over point for the larger packs in terms of trip time versus average speed.

I should have been clearer in my 75kW

Wether true or not, this brings up an interesting methodology to long distance Tesla travel, which states as a basis that in order to cover a lot of ground quickly one should arrive at the SC with a minimum of miles remaining in the battery. Like 10 miles or so, just above the possible system-error range (which might leave you stranded!). And as a corollary add the notion that you should drive as rapidly as possible between SCs.

Yes, there is some point at which traveling faster and arriving more "empty" is probably a good idea. I totally get the logic. Great Graph on that whole matter as well.

Pitfalls though abound. Your not the only persons traveling on the road.

1. I arrived early and WAITED, that throws this whole thing into a tailspin.
2. When I got in to charge I was sharing so you'll never get the full 120kW-125kW because your sharing even with a 100kWh bat or any battery it will be shared charging that day.
3. That max kW also only applies to larger batteries of which mine is a 75. Disqualified.
4. Speeding or going fast does not save lives.
5. You can get a ticket pretty fast that may cause you time loss and $$$ if not arrested outright depending your speed.
6. Wear on everything is real.
7. It just plain old dumb to speed excessively and its risky to save time and charge time.

I appreciate the discussion most of all and quoting my post. Safe travels. Enjoy the engage of discussion truly. Learn something new everyday.

 

[gnuarm]

No, just pointing out that this is simply the latest prediction of the implosion of the supercharger network.

This is nonsense, of course. Of the 650 or so US locations, perhaps a dozen are busy? And there are superchargers under construction near by?

Just like all the newbies that are looking at their first market correction and think the world is coming to an end. Take a deep breath - it will be fine.

I'm not going to debate this sort of non-information. My posts provide a fair amount of info and you address none of that. Ok, there have been problems with charging before and the company still stands. But it is not "business as usual" for Tesla. They are trying to ship 100,000+ cars a year. That is nothing like what they have done before. I don't see how you can claim this won't cause problems going forward.

I'm not going to rehash every point I've made in my other posts. Read them or not. Agree or not, but if you are going to debate the issue, please don't base your argument on "another day, another charging problem... yawn".

 

[gnuarm]

I'm not excusing their behavior. I'm saying that it's irrational to expect them to behave differently. When you have data point after data point that says 'X company says Y but does Z' it's unreasonable to expect them to do Y.

Whining that an alcoholic drinks too much is just being a whiner, its not going to change anything. And being shocked or angry about how much they drink is totally pointless.

Tesla as a brand has consistently over-promised and under-delivered. It's not OK. But it's illogical to expect them to do differently. Whining that they didn't meet their target with supercharger expansion is just whining, it's not productive, and it's irrational to expect anything else from Tesla.

I'm not expecting Tesla to operate differently, I'm pointing out that over the next 2 to 5 years they will have to operate differently or face a significant loss of market share. I've stated the rational for this idea. The bottom line is they don't have as much of a leg up on the cars themselves as they do the charging infrastructure. The Chevy Bolt may or may not be your favorite car, but as a BEV it is not bad at all. It's not selling well because of the charging. The Jag I-Pace is not likely to sell big because... of the lack of charging.

Other companies will make very competitive cars and they likely will be much better at the actual manufacturing which is likely to produce pricing pressure Tesla can't compete against. The only real advantage to buying a Tesla in 2020 I expect will be the charging infrastructure. If Tesla doesn't maintain that advantage they are going to have a hard time selling model Ys and beyond.

I don't get why people can't see this.

 

[KJD]

I'm not going to debate this sort of non-information. My posts provide a fair amount of info and you address none of that. Ok, there have been problems with charging before and the company still stands. But it is not "business as usual" for Tesla. They are trying to ship 100,000+ cars a year. That is nothing like what they have done before. I don't see how you can claim this won't cause problems going forward.
I'm not going to rehash every point I've made in my other posts. Read them or not. Agree or not, but if you are going to debate the issue, please don't base your argument on "another day, another charging problem... yawn".

Here is some information for you. According to supercharge.info Tesla currently has 583 supercharger locations in USA alone.
It also has 39 sites under construction. Tesla also has 45 new sites in permit status.

How many high speed charge stations has GM built for the Chevy Bolt ?

 

[juliusa]

But it is not "business as usual" for Tesla. They are trying to ship 100,000+ cars a year. That is nothing like what they have done before. I don't see how you can claim this won't cause problems going forward.

They have increased shipments before, and it did not cause lasting supercharger problems.
They actually have some cash flow now - which they did not have before.
They can concentrate on expanding supercharger capacity now, instead of expanding capacity AND geography as they did before.

This is really not that big a deal. A few crowded superchargers in the bay area is just not that hard to fix. They have increased the number of stalls there something like 5x in the past year; shame on them for not anticipating they needed more. Perhaps they will not need more once the 6-month free supercharging ends on that big surge of cars.

 

[Oldschool496]

I use them often when visiting clients in the Silicon Valley or Central Valley. In 20 minutes (or one latte at Starbucks) they add 100+ miles of range.

Urban Chargers
They are the best, "splash N dash". Used in Miami and Shopping mall here in FL.

 

[EVSteve]

The only real advantage to buying a Tesla in 2020 I expect will be the charging infrastructure. If Tesla doesn't maintain that advantage they are going to have a hard time selling model Ys and beyond.

I don't get why people can't see this.

Because you’re missing a key difference. Every charger except CCS installed by other companies adds to the available charge points for Tesla owners as well. All Tesla would need to do is add a CCS port or come up with an adapter. A Bolt or i-Pace cannot plug into a Supercharger nor any of Tesla’s destination charging points aside from the Clipper Creek J1772 typically included. Their charging advantage will easily be sustained for the foreseeable future.