Supercharging and 60 kWh Model S Orders - Message from George B

[dsm363]

I hope the hardware and software are included so people can change their minds down the road and gain access to the Superchargers easily by paying the $2,000.

 

[markb1]

When they first announced the $2000 price increase, they told those of us who has already finalized that we'd get the hardware and software for no extra fee, but access (or the dubious "configuring the software" and "testing the interface", as they put it) would be $1000. For everyone else, it would be $2000 for hardware+software+access. They also told us that if we didn't decide to pay for access right away, we would never be able to add it later.

 

[youlikeadajuice]

Model S Options and Pricing | Tesla Motors
To my knowledge, this page has never said "included" for 60 kWh for the Supercharging section at the bottom.

My recollection is that it went from "TBD" to "$2,000".


I've always assumed the difference in the two sections was between Hardware and Service/Subscription. It seems that assumption was in line with Tesla's approach as well.


Regardless, I hope they can find a way to make you a happy buyer.

Here is a screen capture shot of the options page that I took before they changed the web page to reflect it as a $2000 option. It didn't differentiate here between hardware, software and access, but it did use the same "included" description as the 85. This would indicate that the 60 and the 85 would be the same.

 

[markb1]

Even though I was one of the lucky ones to get free supercharger access, and I don't think they owed free access to reservation holders who were not under contract, I think it's completely understandable to be upset about this. It's definitely a price increase, just like price increase that was recently announced across the board, and I wonder why they didn't handle it the same way.

- - - Updated - - -

It didn't differentiate here between hardware, software and access, but it did use the same "included" description as the 85. This would indicate that the 60 and the 85 would be the same.

Also, in the design studio at the time, they said hardware and software were included.

 

[Robert.Boston]

So if you reserved your car in the brief window when the 60kWh pack said "included", you might have a case (but the remedy is simply to cancel your reservation). As I recall, that window was at most two weeks. If you reserved while it still said "TBD", then I think you have no standing -- you were willing to reserve with that component undecided.

 

[brianman]

@youlikeadajuice and others - That's not the section I was referring to. Reread my post and then revisit the Options page.

I've added images to my original post to hopefully help.

 

[youlikeadajuice]

@youlikeadajuice and others - That's not the section I was referring to. Reread my post and then revisit the Options page.

I've added images to my original post to hopefully help.

I'm familiar with what you posted, you mentioned that to your recollection it went straight from "tbd" to "$2000"....what I posted clearly shows that there was an interim "included" as well. I suppose Tesla has every right to change their mind on something like that, but I was disappointed with how it was conveyed to customers. Doesn't much matter to me in the long run, I finalized tonight with the 60 and the supercharging option!

 

[brianman]

I'm familiar with what you posted, you mentioned that to your recollection it went straight from "tbd" to "$2000"....what I posted clearly shows that there was an interim "included" as well.

No, it does not. I wasn't talking about the part you screenshotted. Again, look at my original post. The green section, not the red one.

 

[youlikeadajuice]

No, it does not. I wasn't talking about the part you screenshotted. Again, look at my original post. The green section, not the red one.

I see your point in referencing the $2000 vs. TBD, however, I don't think I was the only one who felt misled when the section above said "included", especially after it said "tbd". Included doesn't generally imply optional...

 

[SuperCoug]

I see your point in referencing the $2000 vs. TBD, however, I don't think I was the only one who felt misled when the section above said "included", especially after it said "tbd". Included doesn't generally imply optional...

Absolutely right! There is really no way to sugar coat this. It's very simple: we went from "TBD" to "Included". Therefore, what was once "to be determined" had finally been determined and what they decided was that it would be INCLUDED. (The same way it was INCLUDED with the 85 KWH cars). That's it pure and simple.

Once they determine their course on a critical option like this I absolutely expected them to stand by it. If at a later date they have a change of heart and decide to make it an optional component for an additional charge that is fine but they needed to handle it the same way as the price increase is being handled.

The final resolution of giving free Supercharger configurations to only those customers who had signed agreements was far less than I expected. After all, relatively few people actually had signed agreements in place and the vast majority of those people were ordering 85 KWH cars. (In fact, I'd bet that the actual number of 60 KWH buyers who are getting Superchargers for free is probably less than 100)

 

[brianman]

It's very simple: we went from "TBD" to "Included".

No, it didn't. You're mixing up the green and red sections (see Supercharging and 60 kWh Model S Orders - Message from George B - Page 8). I realize the formatting is fail on the page and confusing because of it. But that's very different from what's been asserted.

Tesla makes plenty of mistakes on the web site, and I've put some forum cred on the line calling them out on it on more than one occasion.

There's no need to criticize them for imagined ones.

I realize you're unhappy with the way they've done the pricing, and you have a right to your feelings. But asserting something that isn't fact is where I take issue.

Perhaps you can have AnOutsider go dig up the history like he's done for deltas on the web site before.

 

[markb1]

No, it didn't. You're mixing up the green and red sections (see Supercharging and 60 kWh Model S Orders - Message from George B - Page 8). I realize the formatting is fail on the page and confusing because of it. But that's very different from what's been asserted.

You are mistaken. Here are the screenshots I took on 9/28. It was "included" or "standard" everywhere. They did change the wording from "supercharging hardware" to simply "supercharging" when they announced the $2000 price increase.

 

[brianman]

Thanks, markb1. Good to see some solid evidence both sections (and the design page!) changed to "Included". First time I've seen that. Thanks for sharing the 09/28 screenies.

@youlikeadajuice and others - Mea culpa. Best bet is to forward along these screenshots to your Tesla contacts and see if they might budge on some accomodations. You definitely have a legitimate gripe given that screenshot.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Thanks, markb1. Good to see some solid evidence both sections (and the design page!) changed to "Included". First time I've seen that. Thanks for sharing the 09/28 screenies.

@youlikeadajuice and others - Mea culpa. Best bet is to forward along these screenshots to your Tesla contacts and see if they might budge on some accomodations. You definitely have a legitimate gripe given that screenshot.

I still think not. If you reserved when it said "TBD", you weren't "baited" into the reservation by the supposedly free SC equipment. Even if you did reserve in that period, you have a very simple remedy: cancel your reservation and get your money back.

 

[brianman]

I still think not. If you reserved when it said "TBD", you weren't "baited" into the reservation by the supposedly free SC equipment. Even if you did reserve in that period, you have a very simple remedy: cancel your reservation and get your money back.

I don't see it the same way.

During the transition from pre-reservation to reservation to finalization to delivery, the web site will be updated as more knowledge is publicly releasable. As such, it's reasonable to see "TBD" in a few spots that later gets refined to either "Included", "Optional", "$amount", etc. What's a problem (to me at least) is when a "TBD" gets "resolved" to "Included" (in a public/official fashion) and then later gets 'revised' to "less than Included".

TBD means "To Be Disclosed/Decided". Once it's left TBD and become something else, changing it again is not a good idea. Even more not a good idea without official notification in e-mail that there is a such a change. "Sleight of hand" web page edits that "easily go unnoticed" erodes trust, and leads to confusion and dismay.

 

[Dave EV]

They did change the wording from "supercharging hardware" to simply "supercharging" when they announced the $2000 price increase.

There is a huge difference between "supercharging hardware" and "supercharging".

The supercharging hardware cost is probably minimal. As a reference, Nissan charged $795 for CHAdeMO capability when the LEAF was first released. But either way, I never would have expected lifetime supercharging access included with the hardware alone.

A 30 minute Tesla supercharging session in California is worth $15-30 (extrapolating from the cost of a 50 kW CHAdeMO charging session).

If you are in a position to use the supercharger somewhat frequently, it is absolutely worth $2000 for lifetime access alone, disregarding the hardware/software Tesla needs to add to each Model S.

Now if you're in a situation where you had hoped to only occasionally use a Supercharger as a pay-as-you-go feature, that does suck. I still think it sucks that you can't get supercharger access at all on the 40 kWh cars - there's no technical reason why they wouldn't be able to supercharge at a rate corresponding to their lower battery capacity which would still be significantly faster than dual-charging at 20 kW when charging from near empty.

 

[brianman]

I still think it sucks that you can't get supercharger access at all on the 40 kWh cars - there's no technical reason why they wouldn't be able to supercharge at a rate corresponding to their lower battery capacity which would still be significantly faster than dual-charging at 20 kW when charging from near empty.

We have other threads on this already. I'll try to be brief.

The term "supercharging" is arguably meaningless when you water it down to as "low" as 20 kW.

What you really want (I think) is for an "HPWC level" charger to be available wherever the Supercharger stations are. I think that's totally reasonable, but calling it "supercharging, just with rate diminished" is kind of like saying "your car is exactly like mine except that it only has 2 wheels (and most sane people would call it a motorcycle)".

 

[mnx]

He said significantly faster than 20kW (ie. 1C or 40kW)

We have other threads on this already. I'll try to be brief.

The term "supercharging" is arguably meaningless when you water it down to as "low" as 20 kW.

What you really want (I think) is for an "HPWC level" charger to be available wherever the Supercharger stations are. I think that's totally reasonable, but calling it "supercharging, just with rate diminished" is kind of like saying "your car is exactly like mine except that it only has 2 wheels (and most sane people would call it a motorcycle)".

 

[gregincal]

I did reserve during that period, and configured a 60kWh in my garage. I was quite surprised to check back a week later and find my reserved car had increased by $2000 without me touching it. The "supercharger" checkbox was checked automatically when I selected 60, and remained checked with an extra $2000 associated with it when they changed the website. There was no notification either (I think they only sent an email to people that had already finalized).

That said, my response was to just change to the 85kWh battery.