Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Leeboy22001]

@Leeboy22001 posted lots of messages on this thread, although we have not heard from him lately. He initially reported 10% sudden loss back in June for his S60, but recorded it as 13% in the spreadsheet later.

Yep I got affected also with my S60 , Vmax dropped to 4.077V, increased to 4.088V when others had a slight increase. No change in Vmax or range since. 90% of charging since has been AC in the hope the BMS might be kind and give me some range back ! . UK rated is now 213, typical is 168. Lowest was 203/161 @ 4.077V. Tesla advertised rated (NEDC) range of 242 miles !. Still on V9 2019.32.2.2.

Have attached latest state at 98.6%.

 

[derkan]

I posted this a while ago but here it is again. This is a pre-update chart of my car that has not been effected yet.

Can anyone with a capped car post theirs?

I will but don't know how to collect this data and generate the graph.

 

[Pruitt]

Importantly not 90 kWh cars (important, IMO, as the 90 is the only pre facelift battery that uses a different cell)

Yeah. Only thing is, we 90 kWh owners suffer with the first chargegate, implemented around two years ago.
Max charge rate was limited (in my case to about 94 kw), and a new taper was imposed that nearly doubled charge times from 10% to 80-90%. I now spend just shy of a third of my road time sitting at superchargers.
VERY marginal for long distance road trips now. The ONLY thing that still makes it desirable for that is autopilot 1.0.

Apparently the silicon in the battery results in more severe degradation when charging at high levels, but protects the battery from whatever conditions resulted in batterygate and the second chargegate.

Anybody want to buy a used S90D? 66,000 miles.

 

[bhzmark]

I would suggest there is a difference between natural degradation (the cell can no longer hold 4.2V because of physical changes to the cell) and imposed degradation (Tesla is imposing a cap to stop it from charging to 4.2V because its not a good idea for other reasons).

You have just shifted the issue to "other reasons." What if those reasons are simply because the battery has degraded due to usage and environmental factors?

See figures 1 and 2 in BU-1003a: Battery Aging in an Electric Vehicle (EV) – Battery University

This describes that as the battery ages (due to normal usage and environmental factors) the battery is more susceptible to stresses and adding grace capacity reduces the stress on the battery prolonging its life in the long run.

 

[Whiteblaze]

Have people with decreased voltages - batterygate - noticed lack of software updates to v10?

Been a while since I checked in on this thread, but yes, I am affected and no, I have not received v10 either.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Yeah. Only thing is, we 90 kWh owners suffer with the first chargegate, implemented around two years ago.
Max charge rate was limited (in my case to about 94 kw), and a new taper was imposed that nearly doubled charge times from 10% to 80-90%. I now spend just shy of a third of my road time sitting at superchargers.
VERY marginal for long distance road trips now. The ONLY thing that still makes it desirable for that is autopilot 1.0.

Apparently the silicon in the battery results in more severe degradation when charging at high levels, but protects the battery from whatever conditions resulted in batterygate and the second chargegate.

Anybody want to buy a used S90D? 66,000 miles.

Yep, I was careful not to say it was better chemistry, just different. I am clear that for me chargegate would be worse than batterygate.

Although as an old 70 owner, I used to dream of getting 94kWs!! Just proves everyone’s circumstances are different.

 

[sorka]

I briefly saw 119KW on my P85D the other night at Casa De Fruita when I started charging at 17%. By the time it rose to 25% I was down to 105KW.

Once upon a time, years ago, it would hold to 116KW until the mid 30s. Mid 35% is now 92KW unless I start at 35% at which point it will hold above 116KW for a few %.

 

[PaulusdB]

Have people with decreased voltages - batterygate - noticed lack of software updates to v10?
There was a post, which I cannot locate anymore, where a poster was told by Tesla that his older Model S currently had a "experimental firmware" installed and that he would not be receiving v10 until they resolved issues with his current software.

Yes.
Fallen victim to both battery- and chargegate plus stuck on V9 (2019.32.2.1). In-car message states that firmware for the vehicle is up-to-date.

 

[lightningltd]

You have just shifted the issue to "other reasons." What if those reasons are simply because the battery has degraded due to usage and environmental factors?

See figures 1 and 2 in BU-1003a: Battery Aging in an Electric Vehicle (EV) – Battery University

This describes that as the battery ages (due to normal usage and environmental factors) the battery is more susceptible to stresses and adding grace capacity reduces the stress on the battery prolonging its life in the long run.

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That does not explain why some are high mileage cars, some are low, some supercharge a lot, some never supercharge.
There is NO clear pattern at all. And most were hit by almost the exact same percentage of energy loss all in one update.

 

[lightningltd]

I briefly saw 119KW on my P85D the other night at Casa De Fruita when I started charging at 17%. By the time it rose to 25% I was down to 105KW.

Once upon a time, years ago, it would hold to 116KW until the mid 30s. Mid 35% is now 92KW unless I start at 35% at which point it will hold above 116KW for a few %.

Lucky you. I don't get to see anything over 70KW any more, and only for a few seconds. Guess I shoulda bought a stupid bolt and saved a lot of money.

 

[lightningltd]

Have people with decreased voltages - batterygate - noticed lack of software updates to v10?
There was a post, which I cannot locate anymore, where a poster was told by Tesla that his older Model S currently had a "experimental firmware" installed and that he would not be receiving v10 until they resolved issues with his current software.

Yep. I got squat. I only seem to get 'updates' that downgrade or break something

 

[omarsultan]

You have just shifted the issue to "other reasons." What if those reasons are simply because the battery has degraded due to usage and environmental factors?

See figures 1 and 2 in BU-1003a: Battery Aging in an Electric Vehicle (EV) – Battery University

This describes that as the battery ages (due to normal usage and environmental factors) the battery is more susceptible to stresses and adding grace capacity reduces the stress on the battery prolonging its life in the long run.

View attachment 468607

View attachment 468605

So, I would expect degradation to be smooth and continuous as shown in the top graphic or the data from the Plug-In America logitudinal battery survey, where you see a pretty tight fit to the line--it also mirror my 6 years of ownership. When I look at the second, graphic, where capacity falls off a cliff, it sure seems like something is not working as expected.

Losing 12 kWh of capacity is not unexpected; however, losing half of that overnight is.

 

[Droschke]

That does not explain why some are high mileage cars, some are low, some supercharge a lot, some never supercharge.
There is NO clear pattern at all. And most were hit by almost the exact same percentage of energy loss all in one update.

Back in August, @Alchemist42, who actually knows a lot about the subject, was posting here and providing facts, including this one:

Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

where he said this, referring to Battery University:

Just FYI, this site is more or less a scam. While most information is at least somewhat factual, there are no sources to back up any of the claims of the author. Also, there are a lot of generalizations that are just not applicable for most use cases or just plain wrong. There is definitely not any institution called a "Battery University".

 

[bhzmark]

That does not explain why some are high mileage cars, some are low, some supercharge a lot, some never supercharge.
There is NO clear pattern at all. And most were hit by almost the exact same percentage of energy loss all in one update.

There is a suggested explanation in the article. But you have to read it closely.

So, I would expect degradation to be smooth and continuous as shown in the top graphic or the data from the Plug-In America logitudinal battery survey, where you see a pretty tight fit to the line--it also mirror my 6 years of ownership. When I look at the second, graphic, where capacity falls off a cliff, it sure seems like something is not working as expected.

Losing 12 kWh of capacity is not unexpected; however, losing half of that overnight is.

Both graphs are showing the same thing — the “SW adjustment” — the scale is different is confusing you.

 

[bhzmark]

I'm now thinking Z might not be Li-Plating.

And this thread hasn't discussed lithium plating since about july....

 

[DJRas]

View attachment 468607

View attachment 468605

The figure 1 image does not even closely match the behavior that occurred on my car represented in this updated image.

You seem to be saying that minuscule step in you figure marked as SW adjustment somehow relates to the step function at 2019.16.1.1 on my chart.

I had lost only 7% capacity due to normal degradation at 132,000 miles (211,000 km).
That figure and text says i should have lost ~20% at that point. Then the sofware update took another 12% off and it remained there for 9,000 miles then returned 4% back and it has resumed normal degradation from there over the last 5,000 miles.
So, the SW adjustment has done nothing to forestall further normal degradation. Other cars with even more miles, more Supercharging, similar driving and weather conditions and software revision are still unaffected and have much more capacity.

So, again, something is different with the batteries in our affected cars as compared to the other 700,000+ Teslas made.

 

[omarsultan]

There is a suggested explanation in the article. But you have to read it closely.



Both graphs are showing the same thing — the “SW adjustment” — the scale is different is confusing you.

I have no idea what figure 1 refers on that page since its not sourced, but that chart contradicts they experience of any owner I have talked to. I have yet encounter an owner who had said "yeah, my range held at its EPA number for 100K miles before I saw any loss of range." The Plug-In America data (which I do trust because its specific to the Model S and I can see where it came from and how it was analyzed) shows degradation pretty much from day 1, which is inline with most (every?) owner sees. So, maybe there is an EV manufacturer out there that holds a top buffer to maintain range as the battery degrades, but that doesn't appear have been Tesla's strategy so I don't see how that chart is relevant to the conversation.

I get it, your viewpoint is that this is all normal. That's cool, I just don't share that viewpoint.

 

[sorka]

My Verizon Jetpack died today. My car is sitting on LTE outside right now quivering in the dark trying to duck "software adjustment" darts from above

 

[mvotb]

Quickly wrap your rt mirror in foil, you don't have much time. You're one of the last of the resistance if not THE last. Hurry, the rest of us casualties are counting on you.

 

[jaitch]

I would assume that you have to query the BMS to get that kind of information it wouldn't just be broadcast. (But I really have no idea.)

I posted this a while ago but here it is again. This is a pre-update chart of my car that has not been effected yet......

Yes thanks have seen that. I want to look at all the data in Scan My Tesla CANbus logs. Just to see if there is anything obvious/non obvious. If some cars are being capped it is for a reason. The actual trigger might not be visible in the CANbus as a straight number but there might be signs. Maybe Tesla use some sort of multiple data point algorithm outside of the CANbus. Who knows (well we all clearly do not so far - JH excluded) I just want to have a look for myself and see if I can contribute something useful.