Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Ferrycraigs]

That does not explain why some are high mileage cars, some are low, some supercharge a lot, some never supercharge.
There is NO clear pattern at all. And most were hit by almost the exact same percentage of energy loss all in one update.

My take, from the Germany statement, and reading between @wk057’s lines, is that some cells are wearing out much faster than expected, and that at the current rate of deterioration, they are not expected to survive beyond the 8 year Warranty period. By reducing the max capacity, this places less stress on the cells, they don’t need to work so hard, they don’t wear out so fast. They will still wear out at some point, my guess is a little beyond the 8 year point.

That would explain why some cars and not others, just those cars that were built with the slightly inferior cells.

Chargegate of course is an entirely different problem, and affects a much wider range of models. In my opinion is probably a more serious issue as it seems to say all Tesla batteries need more gentle handling than they thought. I dread to think what the new higher powered Superchargers will do!

 

[bhzmark]

I get it, your viewpoint is that this is all normal.

No. The relevant distinction isn't normal vs. abnormal. The relevant distinction is degradation vs. defect.

Some degradation may be unusual/rare/abnormal based on the unique confluence of usage and environmental factors.

And the other relevant points are the specific form of the degradation and whether the relevant form of degradation here can be mitigated or even fully or partially remedied or reversed by software adjustments that change the charging functions of the battery. And if reversed whether the SW adjustment might later be removed after it has done its work.

Also I interpreted the chart as simply an abstracted graphical description/explanation/hypothesis -- not a precise measurement of anything. Or skip the chart if you find it distracting and just read the words which say the same thing.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

I have no idea what figure 1 refers on that page since its not sourced, but that chart contradicts they experience of any owner I have talked to. I have yet encounter an owner who had said "yeah, my range held at its EPA number for 100K miles before I saw any loss of range."

I get it, your viewpoint is that this is all normal. That's cool, I just don't share that viewpoint.

My experience mirrors @DJRas's more than those owners you have talked to, in that I saw little degradation initially, ie about 1% in the first couple of months, then almost nothing (not quite zero but pretty insignificant) over the following 3 years. Specifically my Capacity had dropped by only 3.7% (96.3%) after 2 years. After 3.5 years it was still showing (97.1%) an apparent increase which I put down to temperature fluctuations. But the general trend over 3 years was the initial drop, which I understand is common, followed by very little further degradation.

After 2019.16.1.1 it dropped to between 82%-84% original Capacity and has remained at that level for the past 5 months.

Insofar as 100% Range figures go,
Apr 16 = ?? (I failed to record the readings when I first bought the car in Apr 16.)
Apr 17 = 227 miles @100%
Apr 18 = 225 miles @100%
Apr 19 = 216 miles @ 100%
Jun 19 = 192 miles @100% (post 2019.16.1.1 download)
Jul 19 = 191 miles @ 100%

I note Tesla advertise used 2016 S70 WLTP Range as 283 miles. And in the same breath they tell me my battery is healthy. Hmm

 

[lightningltd]

My Verizon Jetpack died today. My car is sitting on LTE outside right now quivering in the dark trying to duck "software adjustment" darts from above

Hopefully your disconnected seat and window will stop it...
If not, Welcome to the discard pile

 

[tom66]

See figures 1 and 2 in BU-1003a: Battery Aging in an Electric Vehicle (EV) – Battery University

Be aware BU is not published research, it is essentially hypothesis and conjecture.

I am not sure that Tesla reserves anywhere near the amount claimed and that would cover degradation. The cars have about 4kWh reserved and allow you to charge to 4.2V nominally.

 

[bhzmark]

Be aware BU is not published research, it is essentially hypothesis and conjecture.

I am not sure that Tesla reserves anywhere near the amount claimed and that would cover degradation. The cars have about 4kWh reserved and allow you to charge to 4.2V nominally.

Of course — just like this forum.

But I thought that article had more interesting and informed hypotheses than most posts on this forum so thought it worthwhile to share it and point others to it.

I think it has a pretty interesting and plausible hypothesis that is directly on point.

And by the way, the website is sponsored by, probably run completely by, Our History | Cadex Electronics. Which seems to be a respectable organization in the industry. More information here: About Battery University

 

[Droschke]

For those who have not read every post and would like to understand the issue as it relates to the topic of this long thread in more technical depth, below are some reputable links. Most are scientifically researched topics, all have been posted earlier and discussed in detail:

Lithium plating and stripping in the framework of a 3D electrochemical model:
https://elib.dlr.de/99559/1/__Client_C$_share_Paper_56971_manuscript_16126_0.pdf

How Observable Is Lithium Plating? Differential Voltage Analysis to Identify and Quantify Lithium Plating Following Fast Charging of Cold Lithium-Ion Batteries

Plating-Stripping Process in Li-Ion Batteries:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ow_Temperature_Using_an_Electrochemical_Model

Continuous plating/stripping behavior of solid-state lithium metal anode in a 3D ion-conductive framework

Aging of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Electric Vehicles:
https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1355829/1355829.pdf

Enhancing Li-Ion Battery Safety by Early Detection of Nascent Internal Shorts:
JES : J. Electrochem. Soc.

Investigation of capacity recovery during rest period at different states-of-charge after cycle life test for prismatic Li(Ni1/3Mn1/3Co1/3)O2-graphite cells - ScienceDirect

Whiskers, surface growth and dendrites in lithium batteries | The Source | Washington University in St. Louis

Short bursts of current can flatten spiny growths on a battery’s lithium metal anode:
Fire-starting battery dendrites go with the flow

Understanding undesirable anode lithium plating issues in lithium-ion batteries:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...thium_plating_issues_in_lithium-ion_batteries

Three Ways That Lithium Dendrites Grow

Lithium-ion batteries: Phenomenon of 'lithium plating' during the charging process observed

A Wide Range of Testing Results on an Excellent Lithium-Ion Cell Chemistry to be used as Benchmarks for New Battery Technologies

Scientists pinpoint cause of harmful dendrites and whiskers in lithium batteries

Degradation Mechanism of Ni-Enriched NCA Cathode for Lithium Batteries: Are Microcracks Really Critical?
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsenergylett.9b00733

 

[DJRas]

Here is my data charted with the charging voltage at each SOC on a 72kW urban charger.

I posted this a while ago but here it is again. This is a pre-update chart of my car that has not been effected yet.

Can anyone with a capped car post theirs?

 

[bhzmark]

For those who have not read every post and would like to understand the issue as it relates to the topic of this long thread in more technical depth, below are some reputable links. Most are scientifically researched topics, all have been posted earlier and discussed in detail:

And what do you think is indicated by any of those? Condition Z is possibly a form of lithium plating?

 

[sorka]

Hopefully your disconnected seat and window will stop it...
If not, Welcome to the discard pile

We've already seen that the drivers seat plug doesn't work. Still hoping the rear door handle fuse does. It could very well be that all the updates that failed failed because the partition in flash that is used to install teh update is messed up and just fails.

The system won't switch over to the new install from the current install unless it succeeds. If it fails due to hardware, you're basically stuck on your current software unless you take it in and they do it manually.

 

[DJRas]

Charge profile at 150kW Supercharger.
I am back to hitting over 100kW for a few seconds

 

[Droschke]

View attachment 468983

Charge profile at 150kW Supercharger.
I am back to hitting over 100kW for a few seconds

Those few insignificant seconds, you did not get before? Not sure what this signifies.

 

[lightningltd]

View attachment 468983

Charge profile at 150kW Supercharger.
I am back to hitting over 100kW for a few seconds

Did something change with your car, or was it just the SuC you think?

 

[DJRas]

Same SuC that I have been using for 2 years. Prior to this week the best I got was 93kW since mid July.
I would hit 115 prior to May.
No software updates since Sept 14.
On 2019.32.2.1

Edit: this SuC is not high use limited

 

[bhzmark]

And what do you think is indicated by any of those? Condition Z is possibly a form of lithium plating?

All those links and yet nothing useful to say from all that learning?

Perhaps the voltage capping for a period of time can reverse some of the plating?

And that plating is hard to detect and isn't always indicated by loss of capacity?

 

[tga]

Edit: this SuC is not high use limited

How do you know? I don't think Tesla identifies which superchargers are rate limited

 

[DJRas]

How do you know? I don't think Tesla identifies which superchargers are rate limited

This is not one of the ones that give a message that charging has been limited to 80% because of high usage.

 

[DJRas]

All those links and yet nothing useful to say from all that learning?

Perhaps the voltage capping for a period of time can reverse some of the plating?

And that plating is hard to detect and isn't always indicated by loss of capacity?

Lithium plating is irreversible.
When the battery is re-discharged, it's thermodynamically 'easier' to oxidize lithium than lithiated graphite. However, keep in mind that the lithium will react with electrolyte to form an SEI (solid electrolyte interphase) layer. This process consumes lithium ions, so on recharge you don't get all the lithium ions back. This is why the process is considered "irreversible."

Wk057 clearly stated the only fix for this condition is a new battery.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Those few insignificant seconds, you did not get before? Not sure what this signifies.

In UK, for those cars suffering from Chargegate, it seems to be very common to get a high rate of charge initially, (perhaps so it seems like all is in order as you check the juice is flowing before leaving for a coffee or whatever), only for the rate to plummet and stay low (often down to around 40 kW) a few seconds later.

I was trying to work out why such a profile might be necessary. My only conclusion was deception. To give an initial appearance that everything is normal, then severely throttle. Of course only a wet finger in the air suspicion.

 

[Chaserr]

All those links and yet nothing useful to say from all that learning?

Perhaps the voltage capping for a period of time can reverse some of the plating?

And that plating is hard to detect and isn't always indicated by loss of capacity?

All good points. Tesla has a policy of loaner batteries in place already, I wonder why they haven't thought of that and replaced batteries that need repair over extended periods of time? It seems like loaning batteries while the damaged ones are in repair would be smarter than the corporate suicide decision to defend theft in court, so I wonder why they didn't think of what you just thought of? The loaner policy was popular and helps sell more cars but the theft policy will stop people from ever considering a Tesla, so someone wasn't listening to you!
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