The wh/mi multiplier should be the same for your S85 and mine, for a given battery capacity: 320 wh/mi for 85 kwh and 295 wh/mi for 78.175 kwh capacities respectively. You are now showing 276 wh/mi because your capacity has shrunk (not that your efficiency is better). Your efficiency is your real world wh/mi which you say is 316 wh/mi.
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
The wh/mi multiplier should be the same for your S85 and mine, for a given battery capacity: 320 wh/mi for 85 kwh and 295 wh/mi for 78.175 kwh capacities respectively. You are now showing 276 wh/mi because your capacity has shrunk (not that your efficiency is better). Your efficiency is your real world wh/mi which you say is 316 wh/mi.
mechapreneur
Member
I see a lot of people estimating their range based on the readout when fully charged. That's a very misleading estimate. If you really want to know how your battery pack is aging, you have to charge to 100% and then drive it down to near 0% before charging. This is best done on a road trip so you get mileage wattage instead of idle / parked / air-conn usage wattage. Record your watt-hours per mile and mileage and how much of your battery (e.g. 100% - 4%) you consumed. Repeat every few months and you get a trend.
If you are just looking at the estimated range each morning when your car is charged, you might as well stick a finger into the wind. Batteries age in subtle ways. One of them is losing the ability to hold a charge at higher voltages (lowering the ceiling). Another way is raising the floor so that your cells start dying before they hit the planned 0%. That revised floor cannot be estimated from the full-charge readings.
As for Tesla lowering the top charging voltage (and reducing power and range) I guess I'd prefer that to a spontaneous battery fire in my attached garage. I need to go make sure my smoke detectors are linked. This is the way batteries age. It is new technology and I am an early adopter. In a few years, I'll either get a new car or a new battery pack and not worry about it.
If you are just looking at the estimated range each morning when your car is charged, you might as well stick a finger into the wind. Batteries age in subtle ways. One of them is losing the ability to hold a charge at higher voltages (lowering the ceiling). Another way is raising the floor so that your cells start dying before they hit the planned 0%. That revised floor cannot be estimated from the full-charge readings.
As for Tesla lowering the top charging voltage (and reducing power and range) I guess I'd prefer that to a spontaneous battery fire in my attached garage. I need to go make sure my smoke detectors are linked. This is the way batteries age. It is new technology and I am an early adopter. In a few years, I'll either get a new car or a new battery pack and not worry about it.
The cars affected so far are older models, so this would apply to you if you buy a CPO, but as of now, not a new model. I encourage you to read the thread and others on the forum to gain an appreciation for the world you are entering. Speaking for myself, I love the car, and have mixed emotions about the company. There are things I worry about downstream, but if I could turn back the clock with the knowledge I have now, I’d still have bought each one. I really also appreciate the community that I am a part of. I am convinced that this forum makes a difference.
DJRas
Member
You have that backwards.
276Wh per mile is MUCH more efficient that 320Wh per mile.
I agree. Seems like they've been pushing the cells too hard. Who wants to deal with the risk of fire as the cars age.
Is the lack of individual battery cell monitoring forcing Tesla to make such conservative changes to maximum voltage? Can a dud cell hide in the strings that the BMS monitors until it's too late.
I think we might need to accept that perhaps Tesla batteries do degrade far more than we've been led to believe. Despite the advanced BMS and heating/cooling to keep the cells happy.
I'm not saying degradation at the level of Leaf batteries but perhaps realistically it's somewhere in between.
DJRas
Member
The ranges estimated (by most here) are calculated from hundreds of charge cycles.
The dramatic drop after the last few updates MAY be to protect the battery from fires.
But, the article posted today shows the fire was from a single module (out of 96 in a, 85kWh pack).
The BMS monitors the voltage of every module as well as the temperature of every module as well as control the coolant flow to the pack.
It can pretty easily see a single module going out of whack and should IMMEDIATELY stop charging and add more coolant to avoid a runaway condition.
To arbitrarily cut top end range is LUDICROUS as a fix for this problem.
My pack now charges at max to 85% of 100% cell voltage (4.000 v at 90% displayed charge)
faughtz
Model S P85DL
You are entitled to your opinion.
I would prefer to have what I paid for in terms of range and performance.
What I was saying, and probably did not say it clear enough, was the 276 wh/mi you had mentioned does not mean your efficiency is better since it's not your "actual real-world" 320 wh/mi, it's just a multiplier.
We are good.
UPDATE: spoke with Tesla service, they remote diagnosed and had this to say:
Expected range drop on a small percentage of vehicles during that exact update.
Additional info: As part of our recent revision of the charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles to protect the battery and improve battery longevity, a very small percentage of owners who own older vehicles may notice a slight small reduction in range when charging to a maximum state of charge. The drop in charge is not expected to continue and should stabilize quickly This change is the result of the updated charging profile as well as increased cooling, which helps improve the overall health of the battery. Charging behavior will vary based on how the vehicle is driven, charged, and the age of the vehicle.
Just to add to this thread - I have an affected car - and to clarify and balance the long post - up to this point have genuinely 'loved' our Tesla MS.
I have a 2016 MS85D with a 85kWh 400VDC - ‘A’ pack. So just over 3 years old and have completed just over 64K miles.
The below assessment of the battery software range reduction, is not through some sophisticated process such as CAN bus snooping, Teslafi or other hi-tech process, but since I’ve had the car I have noted my SoC % charge as well as indicated instant range taking a quick couple of pics each time so have a history of my charges for the last 3 years.
I have done a significant amount of DC charging whether that be SuC or Chademo, however I generally charge to between 80-85%, on a number of occasions have charged to between 80-95% for longer trips/holidays - and very rarely over the three years (between 5-8 times approx) have I charged to 100%.
I don’t drive like an idiot, don’t have a heavy foot and my tyres last about 33K miles per set - after 64K miles I am still on my second set front and have literally just had new rears.
Back in 2016 the one or two 100% charges that I did do, gave me 264 miles of range and 80% provided me with 214 miles of range. These were real world ranges for those who say batteries don’t store miles - I have done a fair amount of long distance trips and achieved the indicated ranges.
I have family that live around 100 miles (200 roundtrip) from where we live and on a 85% charge I could drive to them, do some local driving/sightseeing, then do a return journey and still have some miles/capacity range left in the tank. I can no longer do that after the software release and have to detour to a charger and add around two hours to my journey.
So roll onto recently just prior to the 2019.16.2 software update about 6 weeks ago and the 2019.20.21.1 update two days ago.
By the way, for those saying the new 100% is the old 90%, it took about 50 minutes to get to 90% charge and a further 50 minutes to get to 100% - so the charging time has not changed - but I now have 12% less useable range/capacity.
I wasn’t aware of the developing issue on-line and clearly concerned I contacted Tesla Services about my range/battery capacity and received the following response;
I have performed a health check on your battery and cannot see any issues there. You may be able to improve the accuracy of your range estimate, especially if the vehicle is regularly charged to the same %.
Having done some research and found info on this and other forums as well as the ‘electrek’ article, I again contacted the same ‘virtual service advisor’ challenging the previous response. As at the time of the purchase back in 2016 I had toyed with paying the circa £4K for upgrading my 85kWh pack to the 90kWh pack, somewhat tongue in cheek I said that if Tesla had decided to remove roughly 10kWh’s in capacity, perhaps they would wish to offer me a refund of circa £8K. I also asked for the matter to be escalated internally - I was then informed;
The recent change to the charging profile of you Tesla is designed to protect the battery by offering better long term capacity retention and performance. This change was carried out due to the natural degradation on your vehicle’s battery back.
As a manufacturer, we do not warrant the vehicles battery pack for capacity. I have carried out a remote health check on the vehicle and can find no faults.
As your vehicle is performing within parameters we are unable to escalate this any further, nor are we able to offer any kind of refund.
I could go on, but this post is long enough. Suffice it to say that I recontacted the Tesla Virtual Service Advisor and explained that if the matter wasn't escalated, capacity reduction rolled back or a better explanation, I would seek legal advice - I was informed;
I have escalated your battery capacity concerns to our Engineering Team for further clarification and will update you when I hear back.
So I now wait for 'further clarification' ..
As you can imagine I am not particularly happy with the way the matter has been handled or communicated - or should I say 'not communicated'. I cannot see how it is 'legal' for Tesla to be able to 'artificially' enforce what is effectively the degradation of your battery pack (whatever the reason) post sale of the contracted goods i.e. the car as was described at point of sale.
Because of the lack of communication regarding this whole issue (and happy to stand corrected if this was a simple flaw in the software or there is a simpler explanation) I am left with no option other than the cynical thought that the battery pack will not perform as thought and will fail prior to the 8 year warranty limit.
I have a 2016 MS85D with a 85kWh 400VDC - ‘A’ pack. So just over 3 years old and have completed just over 64K miles.
The below assessment of the battery software range reduction, is not through some sophisticated process such as CAN bus snooping, Teslafi or other hi-tech process, but since I’ve had the car I have noted my SoC % charge as well as indicated instant range taking a quick couple of pics each time so have a history of my charges for the last 3 years.
I have done a significant amount of DC charging whether that be SuC or Chademo, however I generally charge to between 80-85%, on a number of occasions have charged to between 80-95% for longer trips/holidays - and very rarely over the three years (between 5-8 times approx) have I charged to 100%.
I don’t drive like an idiot, don’t have a heavy foot and my tyres last about 33K miles per set - after 64K miles I am still on my second set front and have literally just had new rears.
Back in 2016 the one or two 100% charges that I did do, gave me 264 miles of range and 80% provided me with 214 miles of range. These were real world ranges for those who say batteries don’t store miles - I have done a fair amount of long distance trips and achieved the indicated ranges.
I have family that live around 100 miles (200 roundtrip) from where we live and on a 85% charge I could drive to them, do some local driving/sightseeing, then do a return journey and still have some miles/capacity range left in the tank. I can no longer do that after the software release and have to detour to a charger and add around two hours to my journey.
So roll onto recently just prior to the 2019.16.2 software update about 6 weeks ago and the 2019.20.21.1 update two days ago.
- Literally just prior to the software update, a 80% charge gave me 205 miles of range (so a reduction of 9 miles over 3 years or about 4% degradation) - from all I’ve seen and read reasonable and normal degradation - no problem.
- A couple of months back I had occasion to do a 100% charge and that gave me 256 miles of range (so a 8 miles or again around 3-4% degradation).
- 80% charge now has 181 miles of range (a loss of 24 miles or 12% in a few weeks and a hundred or so miles in between this and the last charge pre-software update).
- 100% charge now has 226 miles of range (a loss of 30 miles or 12% in the same few weeks).
By the way, for those saying the new 100% is the old 90%, it took about 50 minutes to get to 90% charge and a further 50 minutes to get to 100% - so the charging time has not changed - but I now have 12% less useable range/capacity.
I wasn’t aware of the developing issue on-line and clearly concerned I contacted Tesla Services about my range/battery capacity and received the following response;
I have performed a health check on your battery and cannot see any issues there. You may be able to improve the accuracy of your range estimate, especially if the vehicle is regularly charged to the same %.
Having done some research and found info on this and other forums as well as the ‘electrek’ article, I again contacted the same ‘virtual service advisor’ challenging the previous response. As at the time of the purchase back in 2016 I had toyed with paying the circa £4K for upgrading my 85kWh pack to the 90kWh pack, somewhat tongue in cheek I said that if Tesla had decided to remove roughly 10kWh’s in capacity, perhaps they would wish to offer me a refund of circa £8K. I also asked for the matter to be escalated internally - I was then informed;
The recent change to the charging profile of you Tesla is designed to protect the battery by offering better long term capacity retention and performance. This change was carried out due to the natural degradation on your vehicle’s battery back.
As a manufacturer, we do not warrant the vehicles battery pack for capacity. I have carried out a remote health check on the vehicle and can find no faults.
As your vehicle is performing within parameters we are unable to escalate this any further, nor are we able to offer any kind of refund.
I could go on, but this post is long enough. Suffice it to say that I recontacted the Tesla Virtual Service Advisor and explained that if the matter wasn't escalated, capacity reduction rolled back or a better explanation, I would seek legal advice - I was informed;
I have escalated your battery capacity concerns to our Engineering Team for further clarification and will update you when I hear back.
So I now wait for 'further clarification' ..
As you can imagine I am not particularly happy with the way the matter has been handled or communicated - or should I say 'not communicated'. I cannot see how it is 'legal' for Tesla to be able to 'artificially' enforce what is effectively the degradation of your battery pack (whatever the reason) post sale of the contracted goods i.e. the car as was described at point of sale.
Because of the lack of communication regarding this whole issue (and happy to stand corrected if this was a simple flaw in the software or there is a simpler explanation) I am left with no option other than the cynical thought that the battery pack will not perform as thought and will fail prior to the 8 year warranty limit.
There are 16 modules in a 85kWh pack. Each module is made of 444 cells in a 74p6s config, for 22.2V nominal (3.7V/cell), 25.2V peak (4.2V) per module. 16 modules are wired in series for 355V nominal, 403V peak.
DJRas
Member
This degradation is NOT "normal"
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DJRas
Member
The effect of this update is to ANY state you charge to.
At 90% I was getting to 223 miles prior to 2019.16.1.1. Now 196 miles.
I have a 2015 P85D. I seem to have escaped this. I just recently acquired this (about a month ago). The nominal battery pack read 73.5 kWh when I bought it and since then I have been updating the software and it stands at 20.4.2 now. Still is at 73.5 kWh - no changes (and no change in rated miles either - still at 237). Haven't supercharged from a low SOC to 100 between 16.2 and 20.4.2 if that means anything. Just to offer a data point for this saga.
DJRas
Member
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