Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[stopcrazypp]

Everyone thought this was a 691hp car

Just to chime in, it doesn't include me (back during launch in October 2014, not recently), nor the author of this article:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ower-numbers-for-tesla-model-s-whats-the-deal

People in this thread from back then figured it out too in regards to the S60 vs S85 and P85:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-470hp-but-0-60-mph-rate-still-the-same/page2

 

[darthy001]

2 more major websites in Norway running this story on top now. In addition Norways second largets tabloid is reprinting one of these in its entirety as the headline newsstory since they are affiliate websites....

The original link/story from Dennis87 actually adds another very interesting datapoint for the Norwegians here. The official norwegian car registry still lists the car as having 700hp(no motor power reference there), and that number is provided to the registry by Tesla themselves!

So there we have the smoking gun in Norway as Tesla has officially reported the car as having 700 "normal" hp to the authorities

and the infamous lying nordic Pr-rep for Tesla is being re-quoted for past statements as well now. He is now backpeddeling like a mad man

oh the plot thickens

 

[Stoneymonster]

I hate everything.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The original link/story from Dennis87 actually adds another very interesting datapoint for the Norwegians here. The official norwegian car registry still lists the car as having 700hp(no motor power reference there), and that number is provided to the registry by Tesla themselves!

So there we have the smoking gun in Norway as Tesla has officially reported the car as having 700 "normal" hp to the authorities

The registration is based on the EU certificate of conformity. That certificate uses the "maximum net power" from the ECE R85, of which there is no such thing as a "battery limited number" (there are three numbers, none of which factor in the battery). Legally 700hp was the right number to use on the certificate, regardless of how the consumer complaint goes. Some certificates use the 66kW continuous number, but actually that number is not the proper one to use (looking at the V5C forms from the UK for example specifies "maximum net power" should be filled in, not a continuous or hourly number).

From P85D certificate of conformity:
27.2 Maximum hourly output: 66kW
27.3 Maximum net power: 193kW (front), 350kW (rear)
27.4 Maximum 30min power: 79kW (front), 90kW (rear)

So combined motor power is 543kW (728hp) and not 515kW? Confusing.

 

[darthy001]

The registration is based on the EU certificate of conformity. That certificate uses that maximum net power from the ECE R85, of which there is no such thing as a "battery limited number" (there are three numbers, none of which factor in the battery). Legally 700hp was the right number to use on the certificate, regardless of how the consumer complaint goes. Some certificates uses the 66kW continuous number, but actually that number is not the proper one to use (looking at the V5C forms from the UK for example specifies "maximum net power" should be filled in).

The article isnt referring to this certificate or the actual registration numbers. The usage you are referring to does not show 700hp in Norway either. The car registration-documents shows the 66kw-value only.

This is another registry used by the authorities to my knowledge. And it has no qualifiers regarding ECE R85 or motor power whatsoever. It is also the source of several online services providing vehichle data to other parties like insurance companies etc.

Edit: and from the way Tesla pr-rep is speaking today they are backpeddeling like crazy now as opposed to some weeks ago. Gone are the stabs at customers dont understanding etc etc.

 

[P85]

Coming from sports cars, tuning 100+ petrol turbo cars and driving super bike motorcycles you can imagine me feeling over the moon the day I ordered a 700 hp family car back in September 2014 :love:

Then imagine the dissapointment when I actually had the chance to drive my brand new P85D early March 2015 :scared:

I joined the danish P85D letter to Tesla, complained to Tesla Norway and sent a formal complaint about the P85D Tesla.

Lovely car, but if I knew then what I know now I would most likely have chosen a Porsche 911 Turbo instead and using the wife´s car for family transport (the 911 has room for 2 kids in the back too).

 

[WestCoastP85D]

I hate everything.

Feels terrible, right? it is getting worse w/ time for me....looking forward to the next steps from Tesla. The ball is in Tesla's court for now.... no action would be very disappointing. It's not ok.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Feels terrible, right? it is getting worse w/ time for me....looking forward to the next steps from Tesla. The ball is in Tesla's court for now.... no action would be very disappointing. It's not ok.

What I mean is: I'm tired of all aspects of this. The complainers, the apologists, Tesla, constant rehashed arguments, the same posts over and over in tons of different threads, this subject taking over every thread. It's ponderous.

 

[Andyw2100]

What I mean is: I'm tired of all aspects of this. The complainers, the apologists, Tesla, constant rehashed arguments, the same posts over and over in tons of different threads, this subject taking over every thread. It's ponderous.

And it all could have been easily avoided.

 

[Stoneymonster]

And it all could have been easily avoided.

No dispute from me. Just venting.

 

[Matias]

Yes. It was Tesla, who put the number 691 to their web site.

 

[tomas]

Yes it is. And I hope this doesn't turn out like the story of Cronus.

 

[flathillll]

This *everyone* does not include me.

+1

Motor HP represents value. Battery HP is absolutely meaningless with regards to value which is why Tesla would be insane to have launched the P85D using Battery HP. Many here will admit they would have not upgraded from the P85 to the P85D if they knew the Battery HP, which proves how little they know about dual motor EV's

Now that Tesla is cell production constrained again (by Panasonic) with the launch of the Model X they chose to satisfy all the whiners.

Getting owners to upgrade to the P85D was critical for Tesla as Model S sales were dropping in the USA at the same time Tesla was sealing deals. Tesla surviving was more important than correcting the media who assumed they could simply add the front + rear motor HP numbers to find combined HP. They did create a combined HP figure that represents value but that was not the "real" combined HP number (aka Battery HP) all the whiners were dying to know. If the media did not specify which type of HP they were referring to they also let it slide.

Many of you here seem to suffer from "pathological honesty" while at the same time secretly wanting Tesla to fail. A toxic brew stemming from jealously and your upbringing.

 

[rns-e]

Getting owners to upgrade to the P85D was critical for Tesla as Model S sales were dropping in the USA at the same time Tesla was sealing deals. Tesla surviving was more important than correcting the media who assumed they could simply add the front + rear motor HP numbers to find combined HP. They did create a combined HP figure that represents value but that was not the "real" combined HP number (aka Battery HP) all the whiners were dying to know. If the media did not specify which type of HP they were referring to they also let it slide.

Many of you here seem to suffer from "pathological honesty" while at the same time secretly wanting Tesla to fail. A toxic brew stemming from jealously and your upbringing.

Are you for real???

 

[P85]

+1

Motor HP represents value. Battery HP is absolutely meaningless with regards to value which is why Tesla would be insane to have launched the P85D using Battery HP. Many here will admit they would have not upgraded from the P85 to the P85D if they knew the Battery HP, which proves how little they know about dual motor EV's

Now that Tesla is cell production constrained again (by Panasonic) with the launch of the Model X they chose to satisfy all the whiners.

Getting owners to upgrade to the P85D was critical for Tesla as Model S sales were dropping in the USA at the same time Tesla was sealing deals. Tesla surviving was more important than correcting the media who assumed they could simply add the front + rear motor HP numbers to find combined HP. They did create a combined HP figure that represents value but that was not the "real" combined HP number (aka Battery HP) all the whiners were dying to know. If the media did not specify which type of HP they were referring to they also let it slide.

Many of you here seem to suffer from "pathological honesty" while at the same time secretly wanting Tesla to fail. A toxic brew stemming from jealously and your upbringing.

I can only speak for myself. I think Tesla is a great visionary company, but I do not want to put my private money into shareholders pockets and at the same time not get the product I payed for. If Tesla did this deliberately to improve sales in 2014, I really do not want to keep supporting the business. It is my private economy that at the end suffers from Tesla doing this.

 

[flathillll]

Are you for real???

Yes. There is a reason a new car company has not been created in the USA for so long. It's called crony capitalism. Elon is fighting the same forces at SpaceX (ULA)

Established players who have not had to compete and when they do they don't play by the "rules"

The term Realpolitik was coined by Ludwig von Rochau, a German writer and politician in the 19th century.[SUP][1][/SUP] His 1853 book Grundsätze der Realpolitik angewendet auf die staatlichen Zustände Deutschlands describes the meaning of the term:[SUP][2][/SUP]

The study of the powers that shape, maintain and alter the state is the basis of all political insight and leads to the understanding that the law of power governs the world of states just as the law of gravity governs the physical world.
​

Historian John Bew suggests that much of what stands for modern realpolitik today deviates from the original meaning of the term. Realpolitik emerged in mid-19th century Europe from the collision of the enlightenment with state formation and power politics. The concept, Bew argues, was an early attempt at answering the conundrum of how to achieve liberal enlightened goals in a world that does not follow liberal enlightened rules.
Publicist, journalist and liberal political reformer Von Rochau coined the term in 1853 and added a second volume in 1869 that further refined his earlier arguments. Rochau, exiled in Paris until the 1848 uprising, returned during the revolution and became well-known figure in the national liberal party. As the liberal gains of the 1848 revolutions fell victim to coercive governments or were swallowed by powerful social forces such as class, religion and nationalism, Rochau - according to Bew - began to think hard about how the work that had begun with such enthusiasm had failed to yield any lasting results.
He said that the great achievement of the Enlightenment had been to show that might is not necessarily right. The mistake liberals made was to assume that the law of the strong had suddenly evaporated simply because it had been shown to be unjust. Rochau wrote that "to bring down the walls of Jericho, the Realpolitiker knows the simple pickaxe is more useful than the mightiest trumpet." Rochau's concept was seized upon by German thinkers in the mid and late-nineteenth century, and became associated with Otto von Bismarck's practical and ruthless statecraft in unifying Germany. By 1890, usage of the word realpolitik was widespread, yet increasingly detached from its original meaning.[SUP][3][/SUP]

 

[sillydriver]

What I mean is: I'm tired of all aspects of this. The complainers, the apologists, Tesla, constant rehashed arguments, the same posts over and over in tons of different threads, this subject taking over every thread. It's ponderous.

I'm just surprised the stock hasn't rolled over in recent days, given the intensity of the discussion. Seems like fodder for the shorts, and I do believe they pay attention to what is said here, just as it's clear the media does. I have no position in the stock but very much want the company to do well, if only for selfish reasons as a stakeholder owning the car. But really more than that, I think they are doing great things (overall) and should be commended.

 

[wk057]

+1

Motor HP represents value. Battery HP is absolutely meaningless with regards to value which is why Tesla would be insane to have launched the P85D using Battery HP. Many here will admit they would have not upgraded from the P85 to the P85D if they knew the Battery HP, which proves how little they know about dual motor EV's

Now that Tesla is cell production constrained again (by Panasonic) with the launch of the Model X they chose to satisfy all the whiners.

Getting owners to upgrade to the P85D was critical for Tesla as Model S sales were dropping in the USA at the same time Tesla was sealing deals. Tesla surviving was more important than correcting the media who assumed they could simply add the front + rear motor HP numbers to find combined HP. They did create a combined HP figure that represents value but that was not the "real" combined HP number (aka Battery HP) all the whiners were dying to know. If the media did not specify which type of HP they were referring to they also let it slide.

Many of you here seem to suffer from "pathological honesty" while at the same time secretly wanting Tesla to fail. A toxic brew stemming from jealously and your upbringing.

Are you for real???

Apparently so.

I'd like a source for the "cell production constraint" for one. I've seen nor heard of any evidence that this is the case. All evidence for the past several months has pointed more towards a demand constraint, if anything, IMO. Yeah, I know. Tesla fanatics are going to eat me up for that one. But seriously, why a referral program that costs $2k per car sold if they didn't need to spur demand?

As for the "motor power" vs "battery power" debate (you know, on topic), the battery limited power is much more representative of the car's performance than the "motor power" figure. Battery limited HP plus the combined actual torque output is the true measure of performance. Not the nameplate rating of the motors that can't be realized in the car.

Also, Tesla put the 691 HP on their site, not the media just adding numbers.

I don't want Tesla to fail. If they fail it's their own doing at this point.

 

[flathillll]

No Tesla will fail if Panasonic does not continue to invest in the Gigafactory. Panasonic is investing in stages and could still pull the rug out from under them.

Tesla has made the best 4 door car on the planet but Elon could still get Tuckered

Tesla needed the referral program to spur demand as the Model X was delayed. Now that the Model X is ramping up they are back to being constrained by cell production (a good place to be from Panasonic's point of view)

Remember it is not Panasonic that is investing in the gigafactory, it is "Panasonic Energy Corportation of North America" which was only seeded with 5 million dollars around the time of the P85D launch

Papa Panasonic is still in control of Tesla. Panasonic is controlled by "Japan." "Japan" is controlled by industry. Toyota and Honda one day may wake up from their fuel cell dream and realize Tesla is a real threat

 

[stopcrazypp]

+1

Motor HP represents value. Battery HP is absolutely meaningless with regards to value which is why Tesla would be insane to have launched the P85D using Battery HP. Many here will admit they would have not upgraded from the P85 to the P85D if they knew the Battery HP, which proves how little they know about dual motor EV's

Now that Tesla is cell production constrained again (by Panasonic) with the launch of the Model X they chose to satisfy all the whiners.

Getting owners to upgrade to the P85D was critical for Tesla as Model S sales were dropping in the USA at the same time Tesla was sealing deals. Tesla surviving was more important than correcting the media who assumed they could simply add the front + rear motor HP numbers to find combined HP. They did create a combined HP figure that represents value but that was not the "real" combined HP number (aka Battery HP) all the whiners were dying to know. If the media did not specify which type of HP they were referring to they also let it slide.

Many of you here seem to suffer from "pathological honesty" while at the same time secretly wanting Tesla to fail. A toxic brew stemming from jealously and your upbringing.

While I'm on the "same side" with you on the 691hp issue, I don't really agree that Tesla should be excused when they don't meet promised specs, simply because of their mission. We are more inclined to cut them some slack, but ultimately they still have responsibility to deliver what was promised. For example, for the 10.9 second quarter mile on the P90DL (where there is no dispute about the car not meeting it), I think they are obligated to deliver it.