Still no M5 vs. P85D?

[WarpedOne]

M5 will get SPANKED in a tight track setup like autocross.

It might turn out that it will get spanked everywhere except on german autobahn (mind the singular).
Too bad that autobahn is only in germany and nowhere else.

Running form traffic lights, highway onramps etc ... M5 will eat dust.

 

[emir-t]

Oh, sure, blasting like a bat out of hell from a halt through the quarter mile is "every day driving". Seems slightly disingenuous to define what the Tesla excels at as "everyday driving" while everything else is supposedly of secondary importance.
I consider one of the the main "every day" purposes of such a car to perform on the motorway's left lane at speeds of 100 mph+ while maintaining a decent range. I'm not quite sure that the Tesla outperforms any competitor in that discipline.

I've driven a lot of long road trips. From Turkey to Greece, Turkey to Bulgaria, within Turkey, (from north to south) Northern California to Arizona and much more. I also drive 50+km daily for my commute to work. I "never" drove above 100mph consistently. Most I go "consistently" is 140kph(~85mph) which is a bit more than 10% above the speed limit.

I agree that the Tesla doesn't suit the German market because of the Autobahn and I am aware that driving at very fast speeds destroys range and that is a con Tesla should fix eventually instead of ignore with excuses. However I wouldn't consider it a part of daily driving, not for 99% of the people in the world.

Don't get me wrong my aim with this post isn't to bash BMW, our family has had BMWs for 20 years now, we went through two 3-series in the 90s, (E36, E46) and owned a 5 series during 2000s (E60), currently owning a F10 520d (2012) and very happy with it. I can't wait to buy a Tesla if/when they enter the Turkish market with full support as it would suit my daily needs way better than a 520d does (for the same price believe it or not, 520d costs 80K euros here because of "insane" ICE car taxes)

 

[skilly]

This is something I'd really like to see. If our theories about the reasons behind power limiting are correct, it is likely that the P85D will do a lot better on the track than the P85 did with the same programming - and there's likely some additional potential to be unlocked with tuner style programming and direct temperature measurement if that becomes feasible.

As I noted upthread, I haven't seen a single video showing when the P85D gets into power limiting under race driving, or how the power limiting compares to past versions.
Walter

I think that the MS has a couple of fundamental challenges against it. First, its not a purpose built version of the MS that considers things like "spirited" driving. So, while its only a few hundred pounds heavier, it feels a LOT fatter than a BMW in the corners. BMW M5 is a hand built; purpose built rendition of the 5 series sedan as lean and as fast as possible without stepping completely into a new platform. That said, when it comes to drive specifics and suspension tuning; even wheel fitment, many parts aren't interchangeable from an M5 to a regular 5 series without a little (or a lot) of modification.

As of now it kind of reminds me of the T10 Touareg (I had one). It was a MONSTER, that could easily take on a Turbo Cayenne but in the corners you were reminded how terribly fat that SUV was. Same chassis in the Cayenne and it tore through the same corner like a 911 on stilts. I think that MS still have some work to do in this same area before its ready to take on the M5.

What is completely impressive to me is the MS had very little change to it other than the second motor and supporting software updates to make it on par with such an Icon. Imagine if Tesla had taken the time to make it a more limited production release like the M5 and done further changes to suspension and the MS waistline. It would have been that much more impressive....on what is an already amazing automobile.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I agree that the Tesla doesn't suit the German market because of the Autobahn and I am aware that driving at very fast speeds destroys range and that is a con Tesla should fix eventually instead of ignore with excuses.

Tesla has no control over the laws of physics.

 

[emir-t]

Tesla has no control over the laws of physics.

Better energy density is the key to that, you don't need to be above the laws of physics. ICE cars do encounter more drag at higher speeds too, even more than the Model S because their cD is higher. However the incredible energy density of gasoline makes the impact of higher cD negligible, coupled with the fact that you can fill up at the next gas station in a mere two minutes. Electric energy is valuable right now. Once/If we ever get 150+kWh battery packs coupled with high dc charging/supercharging stations everywhere, things will get much better.

 

[WarpedOne]

Indeed. It takes about 80kW to do steady 120mph .

Simple math translates those 85kWh into 120 mile range, factor in battery margins and you are facing 100miles of real world autobahn range. Don't dream about some magic, efficiency ... significantly changing this picture. Maybe 10%, nothing more. Long autobahn range demands much bigger battery - 200kWh for 300 miles of autobahn mayhem.

I'm afraid such a big battery won't happen. When battery tech enabling a 200kWh battery in 1200 pound package (current package) finally surfaces, we will get 100kWh battery in a 600 pound package instead. A better option enabling lower price, weight and better handling and a bit higher average efficiency.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Better energy density is the key to that, you don't need to be above the laws of physics. ICE cars do encounter more drag at higher speeds too, even more than the Model S because their cD is higher. However the incredible energy density of gasoline makes the impact of higher cD negligible, coupled with the fact that you can fill up at the next gas station in a mere two minutes. Electric energy is valuable right now. Once/If we ever get 150+kWh battery packs coupled with high dc charging/supercharging stations everywhere, things will get much better.

Right, but the point is that Tesla is constrained by current battery technology. Tesla isn't going to be the company that solves the density issue...they're just going to build a battery pack with them after someone else does.

 

[tezco]

I'm even more impressed with what this car can do in the green venue. Outstanding acceleration, very good handling, comfort, and all of this while almost completely silent and emissions free, particularly if you have solar.

 

[Spidy]

I'm not an American but IMHO straight line acceleration is what matters in real life.

Well, looks like you aren't Germany either :biggrin:

 

[skilly]

I'm even more impressed with what this car can do in the green venue. Outstanding acceleration, very good handling, comfort, and all of this while almost completely silent and emissions free, particularly if you have solar.

and it doesn't look like Homer Simpson was the designer unlike the other green cars out there....I've never understood why green cars had to be so ugly in order to be recognized as green then Telsa came along and showed that they dont.

 

[bluenation]

for DDs, nothing matters more than 0-60, followed closely by cornering (and related issues, like low CoG and any rolls)

anything else is for Willow springs

 

[vgrinshpun]

This is something I'd really like to see. If our theories about the reasons behind power limiting are correct, it is likely that the P85D will do a lot better on the track than the P85 did with the same programming - and there's likely some additional potential to be unlocked with tuner style programming and direct temperature measurement if that becomes feasible.

As I noted upthread, I haven't seen a single video showing when the P85D gets into power limiting under race driving, or how the power limiting compares to past versions.
Walter

Before the P85D videos on track are available, I would love to hear from people that attended the D event if any of them saw any power limiting.

The flogging these cars took, doing repeated 0 to 60-70mph for probably more than an hour, was probably quite intense. There were thousands of people at the event and probably all of them had test rides. I doubt that there were more than 5-10 test cars there, so each probably saw many dozens of almost back to back full power accelerations...