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Yes yes yes. All good things! :)

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I just read this article on locational pricing for my state, found it fascinating.

Location, Location, Location: DERs Find a Market Opportunity in Texas Through Locational Pricing

This is very helpful for understanding congestion and locational pricing. My impression is that congestion is quite a dynamic process. So distributed batteries be the most valuable sort of resource. Persistent locational pricing anomalies seem like something the grid operator would try to resolve over time, bUT this costs mone to resolve. So the locational value of solar would be as a potentially lower cost alternative to other transmission solutions. The article here did not discuss that potential. Since batteries can resolve both positive and negative congestion, it is really the volatility of congestion that matters. So they need to look a a suitable volatility metric like the standard deviation of location all prices.

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For the longest times I wondered why Elon Musk didn't get personally involved in NV fight. In hindsight that looks like a very wise move.

"The White House is said to be considering Gov. Brian Sandoval (R-Nev.) as a nominee to replace Justice Antonin Scalia on the Supreme Court."

Republican governor of Nevada Brian Sandoval being considered for Supreme Court - The Washington Post

Ugh, why do I get the feeling the Buffett recommended Sandoval to Obama?
 
its still winter, what happens in spring?

http://www.caiso.com/Pages/Today's-Outlook-Details.aspx
looking at todays caiso's net demand (not actual demand)
duck.gif


what happens when Nevada brings on another 6GW of solar farm?
 
Nevada Copper Corp - News Releases - Nevada Copper Forms Strategic Alliance with NV Energy on Solar Development Opportunity - Wed Feb 24, 2016...

mines typically pay a very high demand charge, not from operating, but from restarts (and skip lifts)
a grinding mill uses a lot of energy, but the grinding creates an incredible amount of demand when first starting, so the mines have paid for and deployed solid electrical infrastructure, just waiting to be used for more than the occasional mill restart.
 
its still winter, what happens in spring?

http://www.caiso.com/Pages/Today's-Outlook-Details.aspx
looking at todays caiso's net demand (not actual demand)
View attachment 112581

what happens when Nevada brings on another 6GW of solar farm?

A legend would be helpful. On the website, the solid dark blue was actual demand, the dotted light blue was 1 hour ahead futures, and the dotted purple was the day ahead future. I am not sure what the green line is supposed to be. It makes sense that the hour ahead and actual would be close together. If the green line was day ahead, then the gap would represent a missed opportunity to ramp up some cheap baseload.


If the green line is demand net of behind-the-meter generation, it does not make sense why hour ahead would be that far from it.

Regardless to answer the question, adding 6 MW of solar would be helpful for reducing the amount of thermal power needed. But that power would be supply not net demand in any case. So if the objective is to generate lower cost power with zero emissions, this would be a welcome addition. But if your objective is to support the fossil fuel generation, then I suspect you might see it as a problem.

For me, the goal is to push out coal and gas anytime the sun shines or the wind blows. Save fuels for backup for power. How else are we to even approach a 100% renewable grid.
 
I don't know much about this so I am posting this more as a question. Based on the above Bloomberg article I posted, I get the sense that that TOU rates in the middle of the day will drop to zero in CA, effectively homeowners getting no credit at all for any excess energy shipped to the grid. But homeowners will be charged what ever prevailing rates in the evening hours when they rely on the grid. So essentially all solar systems will become more or less useless unless backed by batteries. So now Solarcity and others will need to include the cost of the battery in their solar system costs in an attempt to beat the non-solar utility bill, which could make this challenging. Am I on right track on this?

Also there is no grandfathering of anyone in this, correct? TOU rates apply to ALL consumers it appears, old solar, new solar, non solar.
 
A legend would be helpful. ...Regardless to answer the question, adding 6 MW of solar would be helpful for reducing the amount of thermal power needed. But that power would be supply not net demand in any case. So if the objective is to generate lower cost power with zero emissions, this would be a welcome addition. But if your objective is to support the fossil fuel generation, then I suspect you might see it as a problem.

...
A legend would be helpful. agree, it was just a link to caiso, and a link to a caiso picture, they separated the legend out!!!


Nevada solar farm is trending from 4 cents /kwH to 3 cents/kWh in the mid term (2018 new build)

how California grids and Nevada interact, I don't know. Generally I consider that excess solar flows east, resulting in California being stuck with something of a Loch Ness curve instead of a duck curve, while the rest of America can enjoy cheaper solar power than California.

since THAT decision, Nevada seems to scoring lots of solar farms getting the green light, simply because it IS the cheapest new electricity to be brought online, it has affected SCTY share price.

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I don't know much about this so I am posting this more as a question. Based on the above Bloomberg article I posted, I get the sense that that TOU rates in the middle of the day will drop to zero in CA, effectively homeowners getting no credit at all for any excess energy shipped to the grid. But homeowners will be charged what ever prevailing rates in the evening hours when they rely on the grid. So essentially all solar systems will become more or less useless unless backed by batteries. So now Solarcity and others will need to include the cost of the battery in their solar system costs in an attempt to beat the non-solar utility bill, which could make this challenging. Am I on right track on this?

Also there is no grandfathering of anyone in this, correct? TOU rates apply to ALL consumers it appears, old solar, new solar, non solar.

a 4 year phase in, a 12 year phase in, a 20 year phase in, are all forms of grandfathering but differed by duration and abruptness.

intent to go to TOU was demonstrated, but content of going to TOU was not fleshed out.


somebody in California is going to need to fund purchasing many many batteries, Japan has about 10% of daily power requirements from pumped hydro, so there is precedent for large scale, grid energy storage.
 

Nice find. Opening up interstate transmission would be fine. But what California needs is about 10 GW of storage. If 3 million homes had a home battery or an EV available to charge that would cover it. That may seem far fetched, but it does point in the direction that leads to a 100% renewable grid. Imagine if California had 10 GW of batteries all linked to the grid to soak up oversupply. It would also supply 10 GW of peak power as well.

So, yes, exporting the power to other states could be cheaper in the short run. But in the long, they need to roll out the batteries and charge EVs.

BTW, I do think that PTC on wind is problematic. In my view, I think PTC should be restricted when the wholesale price is negative, unless the producer stores the power for use at another time. The price can drop to $(23)/MWh for wind because at this price PTC nets out to zero. So PTC creates an artificial incentive for negative wholesale prices. If the PTC were adjusted to motivate self storage, two problems could be solved. I also think it may be time for a federal battery tax credit. This would round out incentives leading to a fully renewable grid.
 
I don't know much about this so I am posting this more as a question. Based on the above Bloomberg article I posted, I get the sense that that TOU rates in the middle of the day will drop to zero in CA, effectively homeowners getting no credit at all for any excess energy shipped to the grid. But homeowners will be charged what ever prevailing rates in the evening hours when they rely on the grid. So essentially all solar systems will become more or less useless unless backed by batteries. So now Solarcity and others will need to include the cost of the battery in their solar system costs in an attempt to beat the non-solar utility bill, which could make this challenging. Am I on right track on this?

Also there is no grandfathering of anyone in this, correct? TOU rates apply to ALL consumers it appears, old solar, new solar, non solar.

TOU is not the same thing as wholesale prices. TOU is retail, and it is the same buying and selling. So it is highly unlikely that any TOU would go to zero. Why? That would motivate huge demand for home batteries not to mention EVs to harvest free electricity. And here I am not talking about just solar owners. All ratepayers would benefit from harvesting free electricity. Dry your closthes, heat your water, defrost your fridge, etc. The only time that zero TOU makes economic sense is when wholesale prices are negative. Then the utility can make money providing load. But the utility still needs to make 7c or so to cover transmission and distribution costs.

So once you recognize that TOU is the price at which retail power is sold, it becomes clear that the utilities do not have an incentive to underprice it. It is far different with a feed-in tariff, which only applis to buying power from customers not selling. A utility does have an incentive to underprice a FiT, but not a TOU. So with a TOU, you get demand response across the customer base which serves to level out demand net of supply throughout the day.

Much hand wringing has been done over the so called duck curve. I fail to see it as something that is bad. Rather it is an opportunity to set up intelligent rate plans that allow consumers to benefit from lower prices and avoid higher prices. So why should consumers run their closthes dry or charge their car in the duck's? That's the sort of stupidity that flat rate plans encourage. But in a TOU plan I can save 5c or whatever over the flat rate just by charging my car in the early morning or maybe midday. That to me is a terrific opportunity.

There has been this question about how solar benefits nonsolar ratepayers. Well if I get to save a few cents per kWh charging my car at midday because of an abundance of solar, I'm happy about that. That's a solar benefit to me. If I own solar and generate a little more than I need, I'm happy if some other retail rate payer gets to benefit from saving a few cents off my surplus power. Moreover, it is not a total loss. I may not be at home on certain days so that I charge my car, but somebody else is. Then on a day when I am home, I get to charge my car for cheap too. So over the course of the week I get the same benefit. So maybe I'm charging at 20 kW but my solar system only provides 4 or 5 kW, so in one day of charging, I'm getting the benefit of 4 or 5 days of solar production all at the same cost. So if I'm withdrawing power at the same time of day as I'm generating power, there is no net cost of power. I'm just time shifting over the days of the month. But even if I am not netting out in this way, if I am conscientious about making the most of TOU rates I have lots of opportunities to benefit from low rates and avoid high rates. If SolarCity is helping me integrate solar, batteries, smart theromstat, and a smart water heater, then I am well on my way to optimizing my power bill. I just need Tesla to program my car for smart charging too.

This is also an opportunity for SolarCity. They are diversifying their product line. There are opportunities for repeat sales with existing customers to add batteries and smart devices. If SolarCity is going to install hot water heaters, what about refrigerators and other appliances? How about HVAC systems? The key thing is making sure it all integrates flawlessly. This was a huge selling point for Apple. Home energy services are not even limited to solar customers. TOU plans that can be exploited by smart devices create a home energy market even among homes that cannot install solar. In this market, service and integrated products are key. So I'm not saying that SolarCity shouldgo in all these directions. They need to explore what makes most sense. But I do think that home energy services could be a very good theme around which to innovate and build a franchise.
 
SolarCitys System For Self-Supply in Hawaii Includes PV, Storage, Water Heater and Nest Thermostat | Greentech Media

Solarcity Hawaii lease option is cheaper then retail in Hawaii, so savings upfront. With 30 day permit approval process, I wonder how many homes they could pick up this year? Maui and the big island offer even bigger savings then Oahu, how many homes there as well?

probably looking at some significant orders that could dwarf any Nevada losses since Hawaii has basically been stagnate for a couple years now.

It will be an interesting q1 report to say the least because of this. New economics of solar+storage+water heater + nest thermo should be outlined.

P.S. Arizona is looking to go the same route as Nevada decision, only grandfathering looks strong to be maintained at the moment. Be on the lookout for UNS Nogales decision soon. Hearings live on ACC webpage Friday.
 
I don't know much about this so I am posting this more as a question. Based on the above Bloomberg article I posted, I get the sense that that TOU rates in the middle of the day will drop to zero in CA, effectively homeowners getting no credit at all for any excess energy shipped to the grid. But homeowners will be charged what ever prevailing rates in the evening hours when they rely on the grid. So essentially all solar systems will become more or less useless unless backed by batteries. So now Solarcity and others will need to include the cost of the battery in their solar system costs in an attempt to beat the non-solar utility bill, which could make this challenging. Am I on right track on this?

Also there is no grandfathering of anyone in this, correct? TOU rates apply to ALL consumers it appears, old solar, new solar, non solar.

Net metering would likely be grandfathered in California for users installing 2017 and earlier. If the deal those users have becomes too good post 2020, other charges will probably be added to their bill. New solar users after 2017 will have a special solar TOU. The implication is that after sunset, the new solar user would pay the difference between the day rate and the high evening rate. So new solar customers have "net metering", but the "net" comes out to an additional charge each month.

California will push solar users towards batteries while trying to not kill the solar marketplace.

The implication for PPA sellers is finding an effective sales process. At what scale does selling PPA work without claims of "free solar" and "we are your power company"? Solarcity customers in Nevada found out who was really their power company.
 
Jhm, Thanks for the excellent detailed response on TOU rates.

I am not big on demand response actually. If my dryer ever decides to not run immediately when I press the button, I will throw it out of the window and hope that some GTM folks or RMI folks are walking by at that time. A dryer with it's own mind is too smart for itself. More importantly, who will go out and buy a brand new dryer for the sake of saving a few pennies for each load. Nobody. Dryers last like what 20 years. And even the folks who are in the market for a dryer, many of them will be put off by the price premiums the manufacturers charge for making them "smart". These types of analayis make sense in the abstract worlds of RMI and GTM. The last thing a typical American comfort creature cares about is electricity bills, and much less optimising it through demand response. We are not in some third world, where the stay-at-home mom yells at kids for not switching off the ceiling fan when walking out the room.

On the other hand I think batteries will find immense opportunity in this. Especially the commercial, industrial facilities, will get Musk's big boy PowerPacks to not only reduce demand charges but also take advantage of TOU pricing. As gigafactory ramps up, maybe the CA duck won't look as silly as projected. In any case, I don't see a much of an opportunity for SolarCity in this. This is more of a burden or hurdle that they need to jump over to keep business running.

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SolarCitys System For Self-Supply in Hawaii Includes PV, Storage, Water Heater and Nest Thermostat | Greentech Media

Solarcity Hawaii lease option is cheaper then retail in Hawaii, so savings upfront. With 30 day permit approval process, I wonder how many homes they could pick up this year? Maui and the big island offer even bigger savings then Oahu, how many homes there as well?

probably looking at some significant orders that could dwarf any Nevada losses since Hawaii has basically been stagnate for a couple years now.

It will be an interesting q1 report to say the least because of this. New economics of solar+storage+water heater + nest thermo should be outlined.

P.S. Arizona is looking to go the same route as Nevada decision, only grandfathering looks strong to be maintained at the moment. Be on the lookout for UNS Nogales decision soon. Hearings live on ACC webpage Friday.

Wow foghat the unwavering evangelical enthusiasm is really something. Where do you get that from? Declare a complete victory when SC barely files a lawsuit. Now the talk as though SC officially bought the state of Hawaii in entirety when a press release comes out with no detail. Incredible. Amazing.

Anyone interested in a bit more due diligence, have a few questions with respect to this press release.

Is this meant to be a solution for grid-supply or self-supply option? In the past SC management sounded like they are not interested in grid-supply option but they are working on self-supply option. But the issue with self-supply option is you can't really tap the grid at all. So you need a backup generator as part of the package, which SC announcement didn't have. So it's not clear what they are doing.

Any thoughts?
 
All these extreme TOU scenarios and excessive fee scenarios are basically the same as saying "you can stop solar". You can't stop solar and to say that it's likely is highly irrational. Compensation for energy pushed to the grid will always eventually wander back toward average wholesale or better. In anything other than the short term why wouldn't it? (unless you live in China)

Today far less than 1% of people are educated enough on decentralized energy to put up a meaningful political fight for this. What happens when that very quickly hits 20%? It's the Information Age folks, the political pressure will be immense as normal people start realizing how vital self-production is to personal wealth and power. Human consumers like wealth and power.
 
Net metering would likely be grandfathered in California for users installing 2017 and earlier. If the deal those users have becomes too good post 2020, other charges will probably be added to their bill. New solar users after 2017 will have a special solar TOU. The implication is that after sunset, the new solar user would pay the difference between the day rate and the high evening rate. So new solar customers have "net metering", but the "net" comes out to an additional charge each month.....

That is an interesting prediction for California that doesn't follow what I thought the California PUC recently decided. I thought the PUC did garantee NEM for 20 years and required new solar to be on TOU rates. What remains to be seen is how those TOU rates rates will be changed. You imply that there will be separate solar TOU rates and I have not seen anything that suggests that is going to happen. All consumers have choices of different TOU rates including at least one EV rate.

I realize this is a SCTY thread and some of these comments might best be discussed in the California rate thread.
 
Jhm, Thanks for the excellent detailed response on TOU rates.

I am not big on demand response actually. If my dryer ever decides to not run immediately when I press the button, I will throw it out of the window and hope that some GTM folks or RMI folks are walking by at that time. A dryer with it's own mind is too smart for itself. More importantly, who will go out and buy a brand new dryer for the sake of saving a few pennies for each load. Nobody. Dryers last like what 20 years. And even the folks who are in the market for a dryer, many of them will be put off by the price premiums the manufacturers charge for making them "smart". These types of analayis make sense in the abstract worlds of RMI and GTM. The last thing a typical American comfort creature cares about is electricity bills, and much less optimising it through demand response. We are not in some third world, where the stay-at-home mom yells at kids for not switching off the ceiling fan when walking out the room.

On the other hand I think batteries will find immense opportunity in this. Especially the commercial, industrial facilities, will get Musk's big boy PowerPacks to not only reduce demand charges but also take advantage of TOU pricing. As gigafactory ramps up, maybe the CA duck won't look as silly as projected. In any case, I don't see a much of an opportunity for SolarCity in this. This is more of a burden or hurdle that they need to jump over to keep business running.

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Wow foghat the unwavering evangelical enthusiasm is really something. Where do you get that from? Declare a complete victory when SC barely files a lawsuit. Now the talk as though SC officially bought the state of Hawaii in entirety when a press release comes out with no detail. Incredible. Amazing.

Anyone interested in a bit more due diligence, have a few questions with respect to this press release.

Is this meant to be a solution for grid-supply or self-supply option? In the past SC management sounded like they are not interested in grid-supply option but they are working on self-supply option. But the issue with self-supply option is you can't really tap the grid at all. So you need a backup generator as part of the package, which SC announcement didn't have. So it's not clear what they are doing.

Any thoughts?

Leave the personal attacks at home they are getting old. I thought the self supply option would still allow you to tap the grid it just would not allow you to sell back to the grid? I'll check out the details later if nobody knows off the top of their head
 
Leave the personal attacks at home they are getting old. I thought the self supply option would still allow you to tap the grid it just would not allow you to sell back to the grid? I'll check out the details later if nobody knows off the top of their head

People lose their shirts by falling for crap when they don't look carefully. I get called out as FUD even when I am presenting basic facts with figures and numbers. The unwarranted hype and hopium is dangerous and needs to be called out, just as unwarranted fud needs to be called out. Didn't you and I lose enough money because of this already?
 
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That is an interesting prediction for California that doesn't follow what I thought the California PUC recently decided. I thought the PUC did garantee NEM for 20 years and required new solar to be on TOU rates. What remains to be seen is how those TOU rates rates will be changed. You imply that there will be separate solar TOU rates and I have not seen anything that suggests that is going to happen. All consumers have choices of different TOU rates including at least one EV rate.

I realize this is a SCTY thread and some of these comments might best be discussed in the California rate thread.

CPUC can guarantee NEM while adding a special grid fee to NEM customers. NEM isn't a contract, and current CPUC members can't speak for future commissioners. But I don't expect a "Nevada" in California. The politics are different , and California has high renewable goals.
 
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