Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

SolarCity (SCTY)

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
2. SolarCity isn't going anywhere. It's part of the 'package'. So all this angst is for naught. It might be interesting to see how things develop and whether Solar City goes back to being private, or if Elon does what he's hinted at before and makes all three companies a whole, or if Solar City morphs into a different role than its current one, or, or, or, or... There is synergy in everything Elon and family are doing, so while the three companies are technically separate via money eyes, they really aren't.

I don't see any of this happening. I'm sure Elon likes to float the idea just to keep them guessing, but he's made it pretty clear he wants to focus on SpaceX once Tesla is on stable ground in a few years. Smashing things together is likely the opposite of his preference.

SCTY can be propped up for this semi-difficult 6 months in any of a hundred different ways. Sometimes it's hard to remember there are about 7 people in this world that don't have faith in The Musk and 4 of them are posters in this thread. The idea that it will be difficult to find people willing to take an advantageous financial position in a solar enterprise run by Musk that already has 35% share is just silly. It doesn't seem silly right now because we're in the eye of the storm, but it will certainly be silly in retrospect.

Buy a distressed oil services firm at major discount or drop $100M into a Musk operation in solar at a major discount? There will be plenty of buyers with probably some coinciding dilution. Not great for us, but it's not gonna matter once they go cash-flow positive and the stock takes off.
 
Mule, you have a very wrong idea of what cash-flow-positive means. You seem to be thinking of free-cash-flow-positive, where incoming revenues pay for ALL expenses. SC is several decades away from that, if ever.

What management is aiming for is net-cash-flow-positive, where they will be taking on adequate debt continuously (but not equity) such that their cash reserve does not go down. This very much hinges on their ability to keep rolling existing debt, while simultaneously taking on more debt each quarter.

So 2017 is no different from 2016. And 2018 is no different from 2017. You seem to think of this as some temporary situation. I don't think so. All data indicates that the business model is fundamentally broken. It needs to be augmented with some sort of additional revenue streams (like jhm's idea of 10-year loans) to make it viable.
 
You seem to be thinking of free-cash-flow-positive, where incoming revenues pay for ALL expenses.
No, I'm not. I think I've been clear that I see any debt unrelated to direct sales, installs and servicing as unimportant. You see it as a $3B monster that's growing, I see it as peanuts.

We need focus on profitability in a bubble for every market where SCTY is up to scale. You could maybe consider parts of CA and NJ as scaled, that's about it. Bring down soft costs and especially sales costs. I want sales at like $.15/W in mature markets pronto!

- - - Updated - - -

And can we talk about this nonsense?

Screen-Shot-2015-08-20-at-2.39.26-PM-256x256.png


are they thinking making their positioning joke-based? What is this, Geico or the future of energy in America?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
When will Natural Gas Peak in the US?

Natural Gas Prices Are Unsustainably Low | OilPrice.com

September 2015 could prove to be the peak production month for natural gas in the US. Since then, production has fallen 1.2 billion cubic feet per day (bcf/d). Consumption and domestic production are both about 75 bcf/d, but with imports near 2 bcf/d, the US is deep in a gas glut.

Conventional gas has been in decline while shale plays have grown the supply enormously. Art Berman notes that about 15 bcfd of new capacity must be added this year to keep supply levels constant. However, many producers need gas prices over $4/MMBtu to be profitable. Thus, the supply will decline until supply becomes tight enough to boost prices to "sustainable" levels.

However, I have to question whether there is any sustainable price level for natural gas. Gas at $3/MMBtu in a boiler is able to produce power at a fuel cost of $31/MWh. Wind and solar PPAs, however, are in range of $25 to $45 per MWh. Thus, burning natural gas is not competitive with wind and solar at above $3/MMBtu. Moreover, solar will continue to come down in price 10% or more per year.

US wind installations were 8.6 GW in 2015, up 77% from prior year, and solar installations hit 7.5 GW. This was in a year when gas mostly traded below $3/MMBtu. Apparently, cheap gas is not sufficient to halt the advance of wind and solar.

Moreover I estimate that the 8.6 GW of wind and 7.5 GW are sufficient to offset burning 0.64 to 0.82 bcfd of gas for power. An offset of about 0.7 bcfd is significant in a market with an oversupply of 1.2 to 1.6 bcfd. An yet this offset each year can grow nominally around 30% per year. At this pace, we are looking offsets of 0.9 in 2016, 1.2 in 2017 and 1.5 in 2018. Demand grows only about 1 bcfd per year. So within the next three years we should cross a threshold where renewables satifying a demand for incremental natural gas.

Excluded from this calculation is substitutions with coal and oil. While oil is in a severe glut of its own, it is unlikely that natural gas will find favorable substitutions with oil. Coal and gas have nearly the same price per Btu, thus the offset should impact both proportionately. So about half the offset to gas and half to coal. Additionally, batteries will have a greater impact on peak gas consumption. This would intensify the gas offset since peakers use more BTU per MWh than baseload gas or coal. Thus, the offset in 2018 very well could be sufficient to remove all growth in demand for gas.

So if the peak was not already September 2015, I am pretty confident that the peak occurs by 2018. If the current glut is sufficient, demand may never push supply to higher levels of production.

Coal has peaked, and now natural gas is peaking. These have profound implications for the distributed solar. One, it is not possible for gas to fall low enough in prices to slow down the uptake of renewables. However, gas price will need to increase to maintain supply. When this happens, renewables will be decisively more competitive. Two, utilities will be burdened with increasingly uneconomical generations assets. They will attempt to recover these losses from ratepayers increasing the burden of being on the grid. Three, rooftop solar will increasingly be in direct competition with utility solar. Batteries will be important for price support in the wholesale markets. Advantage goes to batteries in distribution. The value of location will need to be given serious consideration and is currently neglected in rudimentary attempts to value distributed solar. But distributed solar and batteries have considerable location all value.
 
Innovation: Pre-fab solar farms could slash cost of big solar : Renew Economy

This is a fun idea: prefab, redeployable large scale solar. SolarCity also had some ideas along those lines. I'd love to see it.

Curiously Buffett minions have be trying to fight FERC and solar by cutting the length of PPAs down to three years. Well if a solar field is highly redeployable, that suppression strategy won't work.
 
Fair enough. At the time when SpaceX made these investments in Solar Bonds, the convertible bonds were trading for lot lower yields. So it makes sense to put the cash into Solar Bonds, especially because they are of shorter maturity.

Here lies the bigger problem, SpaceX may not be able to put these kinds of cash into Solar Bonds anymore. If it's done, it will be against fiduciary duties to SpaceX's shareholders. So Solar Bonds program becoming a smaller source of debt is problematic to SolarCity.

Here is an even BIGGER problem. SolarCity needs to return $90mln in Mar 2016 and $75mln in Jun 2016. It's all in 10K, search for keyword SpaceX.

I am finding easiest to understand Solarcity by viewing the company as a lending institution. They have made long term fixed loans financed by short term borrowing. They have interest rate risk, and liquidity risks, that would never never acceptable in modern banking.

They have an ROI implicit in every PPA. While there are many interpretations of what that ROI may be, once their cost of capital exceeds that ROI they will not be profitable.

They seem to have set up an olde tymie bank where their finances had to proceed according to plan.

Credit Susse credit line may explain the apparent hard limit on borrowing. Solarcity may have to renegotiate this line of credit, or other credit lines, to borrow more. It is notable that the Credit Susse terms announced does not encompass residential PPA. Why is Credit Susse not interested in recourse involving residential PPA?
 
Wall Street Won’t Give Up On Its Energy Bets | OilPrice.com

A look at the bets some investors are making in gas and oil. Turns out that Buffett is loading up on Kinder Morgan which owns about 84,000 miles of gas pipelines. Now what would he want with that? And to the point of my earlier post, as gas moves into post peak reality, what becomes of gas infrastructure?

I think it's just Buffett's mentality to buy when a company's stock is down and a good buy. He did this with the 2008/2009 stock market recession. He has investments in renewables, but obliviously is still focused on dirty energy. I don't agree with it, but maybe it's his best way to return profit during the rest of his tenure with the company. He's gotta retire soon....dude is getting up there!
 
Americans Chose Solar Power at Record Rates in 2015 | Inverse

Residential solar was the growth segment in 2015. US solar installation when up 17% across all segments. But residential when up 66% while utility and commercial were relatively flat only growing 4%. So now reselidential is about 30% of the solar industry.

I think this goes a long ways in explaining why SolarCity focused on residential. That's where the growth was.

I expect commercial solar to pick up the pace in 2016, and residential may moderate.

Utilities invested heavily in wind last year, installing 8.6 GW, up 77% from prior year. Wind was cheaper than utility scale solar and does better job complementing residential solar. So until solar gets cheaper than wind, perhaps utilities will do the regulatory minimum amount of solar. I do think that NV Energy may attempt to fight rooftop solar with utility solar. I believe this is primarily to justify a low feed-in tariff for distributed solar. But I do not see how this is a good strategy for balancing generation capacity to load. It is merely a strategy to suppress distributed solar and maintain market share. Other utilities like Green Mountain have a strategy to make best use of distributed energy. A utility like that will add solar only if there is additional need beyond what distributed solar is supplied. So utility generation is supplemental, not competing supply. It will be interesting to see how utility solar grows in 2016. Will it be dominated by NV Energy types, Green Mountain types, or regulatory minimalists?

My hunch is that the minimalists will continue to set the pace. If so, residential and maybe commercial will continue to gain share in the US solar market. In any case, I think storage is becoming incumbent upon residential solar. The utilities will continue to suppress solar, but having batteries gives homeowners much more leverage. It is a hedge against adverse policy. As a class solar owners do not want to be pushed around by utilities, so they need the exercisable option to refuse to supply the grid. Only those who can walk away have any say at the negotiating table.
 
I thought this was a great article on the transition that needs to occur from Steve McBee, although I already see SolarCity becoming that 2.0 energy company.

McBee Insists a Next-Generation Energy Provider Is Coming to Market, NRG Notwithstanding | Greentech Media

“But again, it’s got to be a platform, it’s got to have scale, it’s got to have services, it’s got to have analytics, it’s got to have the ability to do upfront financing. There aren’t thousands of those companies just sitting around looking for investment,” he added. “But that company can be pulled together.”
 
I thought this was a great article on the transition that needs to occur from Steve McBee, although I already see SolarCity becoming that 2.0 energy company.

McBee Insists a Next-Generation Energy Provider Is Coming to Market, NRG Notwithstanding | Greentech Media


its wild what is happening in California around Solarcity right now. They are in the midst of valuing out the benefits of solar+smart inverter + storage + smart thermo through the sunspec alliance project right now, so we'll no longer speculate about how to value Solarcity DERs for much longer soon.

also, if you look at the Solarcity white paper, you'll get a good indication of what Solarcity is going to look like over the next 4 years, 2016-2020. The cost benefits to the grid of what they are doing is staggering. The big revelation is that smart inverters is the big push, accounting for approximately $1 billion of cost savings to the grid alone. Solarcity is deploying smart inverters almost exclusively now so it's really moving forward fast. California estimates are about 900k installs into 2020, so a massive increase in smart inverters to be deployed over the course of the next 3-4years. However, the benefits of energy storage will be staggering. At 100% deployment of energy storage with solar, cost benefits grow 250% to $3.5billion in savings annually to the grid. That is undeniable to California commissioners as the future has arrived in a eye poping way. It is seriously a major concern to traditional cost-plus monopoly stakeholders. There really is no turning back and this is why we see the big "war" happening. It is time to adapt or get assimilated. No other way around it. Current Net metering is an investment in these massive savings that will be available nearly immediately over the next 4 years as opposed to paying higher rates to utiltiies whose investments would take decades to reap any benefit at all.

Here is another reason I think people will re-up with Solarcity: they will replace your old inverter with a smart meter at the 10 year inverter replacement mark. This "upgrade" will open massive additional value to the system for now it has controllable capabilities that were not there before. remember the vast majority of solatcity customers have come in the last two years, so by the time replacement time comes, smart inverters will be the mostly only thing on the market at that time. Solarcity aggregation software platform(and customer service) will be key to differentiating itself and maintaining thst consumer relationship. Looks like again they already have one step ahead of the rest in this direction.
 

Aloha and E Komo Mai

Looks like the full package is now available in Hawaii, of SCTY just sent and email out anyway. not sure if this was fully announced already.

HONOLULU, Feb. 24, 2016 /PRNewswire/ -- SolarCity (NASDAQ: SCTY) is introducing a Smart Energy Home offering to new residential customers in Hawaii. It includes advanced technology: solar PV, battery storage, smart electric water heaters and the Nest Learning Thermostat™—all coordinated by a home gateway that controls the battery, water heater, thermostat and inverter to maximize solar PV generation and self-consumption.
SolarCity's smart energy home management system combines solar with batteries to store excess electricity generated from the solar power system during the day, then deliver it to the home at night. The dynamically-controlled smart electric water heater uses solar PV to heat water during the day and store it for later use in the home. Altogether, the Smart Energy Home uses the battery, smart electric water heater and controllable Nest Learning Thermostat ™ to automatically modify energy usage based on how much solar power is available to prevent energy from being exported back to the grid.


System size, as well as the combination of technology and number of batteries, will vary based on customers' individual energy usage.


The Smart Energy Home offer is available by lease and by cash purchase, and SolarCity will begin taking orders today.
 
its wild what is happening in California around Solarcity right now. They are in the midst of valuing out the benefits of solar+smart inverter + storage + smart thermo through the sunspec alliance project right now, so we'll no longer speculate about how to value Solarcity DERs for much longer soon.

also, if you look at the Solarcity white paper, you'll get a good indication of what Solarcity is going to look like over the next 4 years, 2016-2020. The cost benefits to the grid of what they are doing is staggering. The big revelation is that smart inverters is the big push, accounting for approximately $1 billion of cost savings to the grid alone. Solarcity is deploying smart inverters almost exclusively now so it's really moving forward fast. California estimates are about 900k installs into 2020, so a massive increase in smart inverters to be deployed over the course of the next 3-4years. However, the benefits of energy storage will be staggering. At 100% deployment of energy storage with solar, cost benefits grow 250% to $3.5billion in savings annually to the grid. That is undeniable to California commissioners as the future has arrived in a eye poping way. It is seriously a major concern to traditional cost-plus monopoly stakeholders. There really is no turning back and this is why we see the big "war" happening. It is time to adapt or get assimilated. No other way around it. Current Net metering is an investment in these massive savings that will be available nearly immediately over the next 4 years as opposed to paying higher rates to utiltiies whose investments would take decades to reap any benefit at all.

Here is another reason I think people will re-up with Solarcity: they will replace your old inverter with a smart meter at the 10 year inverter replacement mark. This "upgrade" will open massive additional value to the system for now it has controllable capabilities that were not there before. remember the vast majority of solatcity customers have come in the last two years, so by the time replacement time comes, smart inverters will be the mostly only thing on the market at that time. Solarcity aggregation software platform(and customer service) will be key to differentiating itself and maintaining thst consumer relationship. Looks like again they already have one step ahead of the rest in this direction.

Yes yes yes. All good things! :)

- - - Updated - - -

I just read this article on locational pricing for my state, found it fascinating.

Location, Location, Location: DERs Find a Market Opportunity in Texas Through Locational Pricing
 

Aloha and E Komo Mai

Looks like the full package is now available in Hawaii, of SCTY just sent and email out anyway. not sure if this was fully announced already.

This is wonderful. I lovethe combination of elements. If SolarCity can succeed in avoiding exports to the grid, the utilities can just stuff it. This also goes for bigger game than what utilities provide. It is really distinctive to have this all integrated into one package. I think they should call it the HomeGrid.

SolarCity can test out the concept in Hawaii where the cost of grid power is so high just about anything else will pencil out. If it works well it can be brought to other states.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.