Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I temporarily divested basically all my TSLA stocks and options, in order to do some personal purchases, and I'm finding what I feel comfortable posting about my view on the company stock price has materially changed. I also noticed this when I was heavy in the stock.

I'm supremely jealous of anybody heavy in TSLA right now for the long haul (3+ years): I think you'll make a ton of money.
 
Last edited:
I just thought I would leave this here. Graph of cell phone market share over time.

comscore-us-smartphones.png
So, comparing to Tesla:

Is the analogy that ICE companies are Symbian, RIM, Palm, Microsoft, and Tesla is a Juggernaut like Google Apple? Or, is Tesla the first EV company so Tesla is RIM, Leaf is Symbian, BMW e-something is Palm and Chevy Bolt is Microsoft, and the upcoming Apple & Android is some new competitor landscape like Mercedes & Toyota, with Tesla fading slowly like RIM did?
 
Hey all, I'm trying to wrap my head around how the S/X costs so much and how the 3 can cut that literally in half (or nearly 30k$ as far as I can reckon). The battery component seems well quantified at maybe 5k$ or so savings. Final assembly labor as far as I can tell might max out at around 100 hours @ 60$\hour (all in) or 6k$ for the S, so some chunk of that might be saved (half or 3k$?). Still a long way to go. Then I get to thinking about the various parts in an automobile and it seems like they have high upfront, low marginal cost. The raw materials themselves probably average out to under a dollar a pound. For instance, the headlight assembly is just a bunch of cheap plastic, so presumably a high chunk of cost is the initial manufacture. So is it possible that really the vast majority of savings is in the part supplier contracts? I mean let's say it costs 2 Million to make the first headlight assembly but then you only promise 100k in volume @ 5$ in marginal cost to make one, that has an all-in cost of 25$ but if you promise 1M in volume that's 2.5$.

Of course if I reason from the other direction it's easier. Take a 3-series, pull out the ICE and put in the EV drivetrain and you might be cheaper by 1k$ or so, then put in the battery and you are now more expensive net 5k$ or so, simplify\cheapify the interior a bit and maybe you save 2k$, credit the lower labor cost and maybe you save 2k$, and everything is getting close. That implicitly assumes similar 3rd party supplier margins. The model 3 might be the highest passenger car by volume over 35k$ in the world right? If cost is hinged on volume, that's a great place to be.

Also, incidentally, anyone seen the 3-series sales rate this year? It's down 28% in the US: US sales: November 2016, models - Left-Lane.com . I'm suspicious there is another explanation *other* than Tesla but it stands to reason these two cars are competing for buyers.
 
I'm supremely jealous of anybody heavy in TSLA right now for the long haul (3+ years): I think you'll make a ton of money.

I have had a long time love affair with Netflix (12+ years), and this is the first company that has replaced it as a full time obsession. I had almost got in back before the 10x runup noting a lot of things I liked, but then pulled back because my primary pattern match at that time was that green energy often spurs a sort of head-fake demand that doesn't have legs, and that it was really hard to compete with the energy density and price of gasoline. Then the stock started running and I don't like to follow so I backed off. So it's really just been the last 12 months or so that I've come to understand that you can get 200+ miles on 5k$ or so of batteries (ultimately) which given all the compensating benefits of EVs can be made up for.

I still don't understand the logic of residential solar (vs. utility-scale) but that's another subject, and I take the position that even if SCTY is a fat fail, it doesn't derail the entire company.

There are some parallels with Netflix, particularly in the 'when the big boys show up, the competition is going to ruin them' naysayer category. But like Netflix, having the most customers for your product is the principal advantage, which is hard to squander if you remain the focused leader.

Of course the scary thing is that they already have half the value of BMW (or Volkswagen for pete's sake), so there is substantial risk baked in. I think the proper way to look at this is that you are comparing a 100% loss to a potential 20 year 3000% gain. Btw, it didn't seem sufficiently discussed here that Jonas' position was that the bulk of Tesla's value is in the Tesla Network, beginning in 2018 (which seems unlikely unless it still has human drivers). That's a massively speculative component to this stock even compared to the actual vehicle side.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dennis
Hey all, I'm trying to wrap my head around how the S/X costs so much and how the 3 can cut that literally in half (or nearly 30k$ as far as I can reckon). The battery component seems well quantified at maybe 5k$ or so savings. Final assembly labor as far as I can tell might max out at around 100 hours @ 60$\hour (all in) or 6k$ for the S, so some chunk of that might be saved (half or 3k$?). Still a long way to go. Then I get to thinking about the various parts in an automobile and it seems like they have high upfront, low marginal cost. The raw materials themselves probably average out to under a dollar a pound. For instance, the headlight assembly is just a bunch of cheap plastic, so presumably a high chunk of cost is the initial manufacture. So is it possible that really the vast majority of savings is in the part supplier contracts? I mean let's say it costs 2 Million to make the first headlight assembly but then you only promise 100k in volume @ 5$ in marginal cost to make one, that has an all-in cost of 25$ but if you promise 1M in volume that's 2.5$.

Of course if I reason from the other direction it's easier. Take a 3-series, pull out the ICE and put in the EV drivetrain and you might be cheaper by 1k$ or so, then put in the battery and you are now more expensive net 5k$ or so, simplify\cheapify the interior a bit and maybe you save 2k$, credit the lower labor cost and maybe you save 2k$, and everything is getting close. That implicitly assumes similar 3rd party supplier margins. The model 3 might be the highest passenger car by volume over 35k$ in the world right? If cost is hinged on volume, that's a great place to be.

Also, incidentally, anyone seen the 3-series sales rate this year? It's down 28% in the US: US sales: November 2016, models - Left-Lane.com . I'm suspicious there is another explanation *other* than Tesla but it stands to reason these two cars are competing for buyers.
There are many intelligent answers to your primary question, but from my non business perspective, I heard on several CCs that the S and X are supremely difficult cars to build.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: neroden
There are many intelligent answers to your primary question, but from my non business perspective, I heard on several CCs that the S and X are supremely difficult cars to build.

Yeah there's a high emphasis here and elsewhere on the 'machine that builds the machine', which I take to mean savings on assembly labor. But ultimately I wonder what percentage of the cost of the vehicle is in the buying of parts from 3rd parties. Because if [Tesla's] labor is only 6k$ of the cost of an S, there is only so much one can wring out of that with automation. Incidentally, I have found it darn near impossible to get some kind of reliable and comprehensive breakdown of the cost structure for automobile manufacture. Any tips there would be much appreciated.
 
So, comparing to Tesla:

Is the analogy that ICE companies are Symbian, RIM, Palm, Microsoft, and Tesla is a Juggernaut like Google Apple? Or, is Tesla the first EV company so Tesla is RIM, Leaf is Symbian, BMW e-something is Palm and Chevy Bolt is Microsoft, and the upcoming Apple & Android is some new competitor landscape like Mercedes & Toyota, with Tesla fading slowly like RIM did?
TSLA ~ AAPL.
The rest do not control software and hardware like aapl. That leaves them in the same low margin segment as the android manufacturers.
 
So, comparing to Tesla:

Is the analogy that ICE companies are Symbian, RIM, Palm, Microsoft, and Tesla is a Juggernaut like Google Apple? Or, is Tesla the first EV company so Tesla is RIM, Leaf is Symbian, BMW e-something is Palm and Chevy Bolt is Microsoft, and the upcoming Apple & Android is some new competitor landscape like Mercedes & Toyota, with Tesla fading slowly like RIM did?

The old cell phones died off because they didn't embrace the move from old clunky and stale user interface (UI) to a fluid touch enabled UI with further improvements to additional things beyond the UI experience. Apple in my opinion is struggling to capture the majority of the market because their innovation is slow unlike the Android experience (I was an Apple user who switched to Android because Apple products leave much to desire). Now, to apply the cell phone market with Tesla vs. other car manufacturers, it's pretty much the same concept: if current car manufacturers don't get off the oil/gasoline design and into the electric design asap, they will slowly die from now and speed up their death when everybody wants an electric car after realizing how beneficial they are (e.g., low maintenance, low cost refueling) and they have no electric design. I'm surprised that Toyota is late with an electric car design when they were leading in the car sector (Prius). GMC is on life support due to their Volt/Bolt in my opinion. Tesla can survive if it stays innovative and keeps leading with innovations year after year. If they become like Apple earlier on with their iPhone/iPad and stops having talented design updates, Tesla risks losing its leadership in EV cars. But I suspect that Tesla is ahead of the game by many years because 1) electric > gas, 2) semi-autonomous driving, 3) charging network and speed > competitors, 4) do not build slow cars. One thing that will temporarily paralyze Tesla next year is how Model 3 is produced, the quality, and the promises it can deliver.
 
I have had a long time love affair with Netflix (12+ years), and this is the first company that has replaced it as a full time obsession. I had almost got in back before the 10x runup noting a lot of things I liked, but then pulled back because my primary pattern match at that time was that green energy often spurs a sort of head-fake demand that doesn't have legs, and that it was really hard to compete with the energy density and price of gasoline. Then the stock started running and I don't like to follow so I backed off. So it's really just been the last 12 months or so that I've come to understand that you can get 200+ miles on 5k$ or so of batteries (ultimately) which given all the compensating benefits of EVs can be made up for.

I still don't understand the logic of residential solar (vs. utility-scale) but that's another subject, and I take the position that even if SCTY is a fat fail, it doesn't derail the entire company.

There are some parallels with Netflix, particularly in the 'when the big boys show up, the competition is going to ruin them' naysayer category. But like Netflix, having the most customers for your product is the principal advantage, which is hard to squander if you remain the focused leader.

Of course the scary thing is that they already have half the value of BMW (or Volkswagen for pete's sake), so there is substantial risk baked in. I think the proper way to look at this is that you are comparing a 100% loss to a potential 20 year 3000% gain. Btw, it didn't seem sufficiently discussed here that Jonas' position was that the bulk of Tesla's value is in the Tesla Network, beginning in 2018 (which seems unlikely unless it still has human drivers). That's a massively speculative component to this stock even compared to the actual vehicle side.
I definitely agree with your assessment of the parallels with Netflix. The other thing that is being overlooked by many observers is that with the Model 3 Tesla will be enjoying unprecedented demand. They generated 373K deposits with one 30 minute webcast. Tesla has become the aspirational brand for the 20-39 year old segment. They will be able to sell as many Model 3's as they can build for a number of years. Not having to spend a high percentage of resources on stimulating demand is an enviable position that few companies reach. It has very positive implications for profitability.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neroden
The old cell phones died off because they didn't embrace the move from old clunky and stale user interface (UI) to a fluid touch enabled UI with further improvements to additional things beyond the UI experience. Apple in my opinion is struggling to capture the majority of the market because their innovation is slow unlike the Android experience (I was an Apple user who switched to Android because Apple products leave much to desire). Now, to apply the cell phone market with Tesla vs. other car manufacturers, it's pretty much the same concept: if current car manufacturers don't get off the oil/gasoline design and into the electric design asap, they will slowly die from now and speed up their death when everybody wants an electric car after realizing how beneficial they are (e.g., low maintenance, low cost refueling) and they have no electric design. I'm surprised that Toyota is late with an electric car design when they were leading in the car sector (Prius). GMC is on life support due to their Volt/Bolt in my opinion. Tesla can survive if it stays innovative and keeps leading with innovations year after year. If they become like Apple earlier on with their iPhone/iPad and stops having talented design updates, Tesla risks losing its leadership in EV cars. But I suspect that Tesla is ahead of the game by many years because 1) electric > gas, 2) semi-autonomous driving, 3) charging network and speed > competitors, 4) do not build slow cars. One thing that will temporarily paralyze Tesla next year is how Model 3 is produced, the quality, and the promises it can deliver.
If we're comparing Tesla to the smarphone Apple/Android situation, what is the equivalent of Android in the EV space?
Excuse me Elon for the reasoning by analogy instead of first principles.
 
I definitely agree with your assessment of the parallels with Netflix. The other thing that is being overlooked by many observers is that with the Model 3 Tesla will be enjoying unprecedented demand. They generated 373K deposits with one 30 minute webcast. Tesla has become the aspirational brand for the 20-39 year old segment. They will be able to sell as many Model 3's as they can build for a number of years. Not having to spend a high percentage of resources on stimulating demand is an enviable position that few companies reach. It has very positive implications for profitability.

I forgot how much of the price of a car was the cost of advertising, but I was shocked when I heard it. IIRC, it was between 10 and 20% of the price of the car. If Tesla doesn't have to do that, that's 10-20% free gross margin compared to the other car manufacturers.
 
So, comparing to Tesla:

Is the analogy that ICE companies are Symbian, RIM, Palm, Microsoft, and Tesla is a Juggernaut like Google Apple? Or, is Tesla the first EV company so Tesla is RIM, Leaf is Symbian, BMW e-something is Palm and Chevy Bolt is Microsoft, and the upcoming Apple & Android is some new competitor landscape like Mercedes & Toyota, with Tesla fading slowly like RIM did?

I was aiming for the former. If Tesla does hit 1.5 million cars annually produced in the US by 2020, and opens a gigafactory in Europe and Asia if could effectively be producing 10% of the cars in America in a few years. If autonomous vehicles reduce NEW personal car ownership even by half which I don't think is unreasonable, they would have 20% of new car market. And if the big screen in the middle of the car doesn't bring in advertising and entertainment services revenue from the Tesla network I would be very surprised.
 
I guess by saying 5 times increase of production rate in 2 years I implied analogy. That's not my intent. My concern is basically two points:

1. This automated production line is not there, and don't know when it will come.
2. If if comes too late, Tesla may not have enough time in 2017 to fully test it and it might have the (1), (2), and (3) issues you listed here, preventing mass production in 2017.
Ah. OK. True, we don't know when the automated production line will come. We do know they've ordered the parts for it, however.

I don't know any way to tell whether they're likely to have lots of bugs or a major design failure. I'm just trusting them that they've learned their lesson from Model X.
 
Tesla starts adding features to new Autopilot cars in order to match the older version

Tesla promises that its new Autopilot hardware will enable all of its new vehicles to eventually reach level 5 autonomous driving capability, but in the meantime, they are lacking several features that have long been available in its cars equipped with the first generation Autopilot. Over the weekend, Tesla started pushing a new update to start adding those features, but new owners will have to wait a little longer for features most associated with Autopilot, like Autosteer or Traffic-aware cruise control.

Those are expected to arrive by the end of the month with version 8.1 of Tesla’s software, which should also come with several user interface improvements and an updated mobile app that will also be helpful to owners without the new Autopilot hardware.
<Snip>
Here's a list of the features available in vehicles with Autopilot 1, but not Autopilot 2. The ones currently being pushed to new vehicles are strikethrough:

  • Auto windshield wipers
  • Auto low beam headlights
    [*]Auto high beam headlights
    [*]Auto-dimming touchscreen B instrument cluster
  • Park assist
  • Blind spot detection
  • Forward collision warning
  • Auto emergency braking
    [*]Side collision warning
  • Side collision avoidance
  • Lane departure warning
    [*]Speed assist
  • Traffic-aware cruise control
  • Autosteer
  • Auto lane change
  • Autopark
  • Summon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.