SAE vs CHAdeMO

[cwerdna]

^^^
In case you didn't catch Tony's points, part of the reason why people were so annoyed by emergence of this Frankenplug is because of this reasonably accurate (for 2011) summary from My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Agreement on Charging Standards? posted in 2011:

News story: Seven auto makers, none of which is building any EV's today, and none of which have any future plans to build any EV with quick charge capability, have agreed on a standard for EV quick charging which would of course apply only to cars made by other manufacturers. The new standard is incompatible with 100% of the world wide installed base of quick charging stations, and with all quick charge capable EV's.

This is when there were already plenty of CHAdeMO chargers and the Leaf had been shipping since December 2010.

Here's a later translation from 2012 at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US :

Translation: Seven European and US auto makers declare that the Japanese quick charging standard, currently with over 1,000 chargers and tens of thousands of vehicles worldwide, cannot be used. Three of the seven sell BEV's in small scale pilot test programs. One sells production quantities of an EREV which neither has nor needs quick charging. None sell BEV's in full production, and none have announced plans to sell any BEV that can use quick charging. And no company has announced plans to build an SAE quick charger - if the standard existed yet.
...
Forget SAE. Their only agenda is to slow EV adoption, and they're positioning themselves to become irrelevant to this century's automotive standards. Look instead to IEEE for formal standards for charging and other EV technologies

GM and Nissan trade punches over electric car fast charging mentions GM's shenanigans. Remember, GM has no vehicles shipping which support any DC fast charging.

GM's Shad Balch, Manager of Environment & Energy Policy...

Balch went on to describe the current situation as a "hodgepodge of fast charging standards" with Tesla having its own proprietary level 3 system, Nissan and Mitsubishi using CHADEMO. He noted that last week, at EVS26, an alliance of 8 automakers (including GM) announced support for a the "combo plug" designed by the SAE DC Fast Charging committee. He described this as "a new standard," one "that is going to come, probably before the end of this year," meaning the SAE committee is expected to approve the standard this summer, charging stations are expected to become available late in the year, and cars to become available in 2013.

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.

It seems the main motivation of the Frankenplug players was to try to slowdown Nissan.

Yeah... small group of cars. Sure, one of them just happens to be an EV w/the largest installed base. How many Frankenplug cars are shipping?

 

[stopcrazypp]

^^^
In case you didn't catch Tony's points, part of the reason why people were so annoyed by emergence of this Frankenplug is because of this reasonably accurate (for 2011) summary from My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Agreement on Charging Standards? posted in 2011:

This is when there were already plenty of CHAdeMO chargers and the Leaf had been shipping since December 2010.

Here's a later translation from 2012 at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US :

GM and Nissan trade punches over electric car fast charging mentiosn GM's shenanigans. Remember, GM has no vehicles shipping which support any DC fast charging.

It seems the main motivation of the Frankenplug players was to try to slowdown Nissan.

Yeah... small group of cars. Sure, one of them just happens to be an EV w/the largest installed base. How many Frankenplug cars are shipping?

I get the annoyance/outrage at GM's proposal (no CHAdeMO support at all going forward), but I don't get any opposition to dual connector stations. This is the best way to let the standards compete with minimal impact to consumers.

As for the point of no shipping cars yet, there's no UL certified SAE DC chargers either. SAE DC hasn't gotten off the ground yet (just finalized late last year). Talking about 100% quick charger market share in a market that is just 2 years old is relatively meaningless. Just this year Tesla alone will shift that market share completely. And I have no doubt the market share will also change drastically with the release of SAE DC cars.

And it's completely untrue that there are no quick charging cars planned from the CCS manufacturers. Examples:
- eGolf (in development since 2010, initially called the Golf e-motion and initially used CHAdeMO for quick charging)
- i3 (in development since 2010, initially called Megacity, BMW has been testing the CCS in the ActiveE since 2011)
- Spark EV (announced late 2011, done 200k hours of quick charging testing on the battery pack by 2012)

I don't think it's a conspiracy that SAE backed the CCS. The CCS was jointly developed with the IEC in Europe, so it's truly an international standard. The EU already made it a policy that they will only back IEC standards, CHAdeMO is lucky the US does not have the same policy (although GM tried to lobby California to make this happen).

CHAdeMO was developed by Japan and the major players are all Japanese. The standard is a perfect fit for Japan, but not necessarily elsewhere. The main thing is the 62.5kW upper limit, when even SAE DC at ~90-100kW isn't that high (although SAE DC level 2 does allow up to 240kW). It's perfectly fine for Japan, and okay now but I can see it'll be come a problem quick soon (when big battery cars like the Model S become common).

 

[Bipo]

Did you notice that CHAdeMO does NOT have ground/earth protection?? What were they thinking about when designed it?

 

[Dave EV]

Did you notice that CHAdeMO does NOT have ground/earth protection?? What were they thinking about when designed it?

Last time I checked it had 2 different grounds...

 

[richkae]

I get the annoyance/outrage at GM's proposal (no CHAdeMO support at all going forward), but I don't get any opposition to dual connector stations. This is the best way to let the standards compete with minimal impact to consumers.

As for the point of no shipping cars yet, there's no UL certified SAE DC chargers either. SAE DC hasn't gotten off the ground yet (just finalized late last year). Talking about 100% quick charger market share in a market that is just 2 years old is relatively meaningless. Just this year Tesla alone will shift that market share completely. And I have no doubt the market share will also change drastically with the release of SAE DC cars.

And it's completely untrue that there are no quick charging cars planned from the CCS manufacturers. Examples:
- eGolf (in development since 2010, initially called the Golf e-motion and initially used CHAdeMO for quick charging)
- i3 (in development since 2010, initially called Megacity, BMW has been testing the CCS in the ActiveE since 2011)
- Spark EV (announced late 2011, done 200k hours of quick charging testing on the battery pack by 2012)

I don't think it's a conspiracy that SAE backed the CCS. The CCS was jointly developed with the IEC in Europe, so it's truly an international standard. The EU already made it a policy that they will only back IEC standards, CHAdeMO is lucky the US does not have the same policy (although GM tried to lobby California to make this happen).

CHAdeMO was developed by Japan and the major players are all Japanese. The standard is a perfect fit for Japan, but not necessarily elsewhere. The main thing is the 62.5kW upper limit, when even SAE DC at ~90-100kW isn't that high (although SAE DC level 2 does allow up to 240kW). It's perfectly fine for Japan, and okay now but I can see it'll be come a problem quick soon (when big battery cars like the Model S become common).

It's not a conspiracy that SAE is trying to block CHAdeMO. A conspiracy would require them doing it in secret. They are being very up front about their socket blocking.
IMO they have no business proposing a standard for a market they don't really participate in.

Woohoo, 3 out of the 7 have compliance cars in planning stages. I bet that none of them sell more than compliance car levels in the next 3 years.
As far as I am concerned, "planning" a compliance car is not really participating in the market. If they bring it to market in volume, by all means, take them seriously.

I also doubt that the market share will "shift dramatically". Any SAE DC chargers installed will be the least utilized units for the next few years - getting almost zero use unless Tesla makes an adapter for them...

The one thing I do agree with Shad Balch about is public money. I think all public money going directly to installing EV infrastructure is wasted. I would rather see it all indirect via tax incentives. Whenever public money is directly spent it is wasted. Wrong plug, wrong amperage ( 30 amps! ), wrong location, wrong pricing. The market should decide what plug to put in, what power level to use, what locations to serve and how to recoup costs. Currently the best use of any dollars into charging are Tesla's - building their own infrastructure for their customers.
Nissan should be building their own infrastructure. Both companies should receive tax benefits to help them do so.
Those companies not selling an EV should cry in their milk that they dont get the tax benefits of markets they are not in.

 

[Vander]

There are already LOTS of CHAdeMO chargers about every 40 miles on many of the highways here in WA as well as OR as a part of the "green highway" and I am told in much of Europe and Asia as well. They are in public lots by burger stations, etc, and available 24/7. Being able to access them, instead of just the slow speed adapters included with my car would make trips to the airport / city, etc infinitely more convenient. In speaking with Tesla customer support last week, I was told that "there are no current plans to create a CHAdeMO adapter for the S" in spite of the enormous benefit that it would provide for people like me that have a CHAdeMO infrustructure already in place. He took my VIN # and submitted a request in to his superiors to consider it's development. He told me that the more people that placed such a request, the more influence it would have on Tesla. If you are reading this thread and think that it would be a good idea for Tesla to make a (ChAdeMO) adapter available, consider calling customer service to request that they prioritize it. Better yet, if you have any influence (?tweet-o-sphere; publishing, etc) do whatever you think might help this effort along.

 

[scottf200]

Fiat 500 EV:
Pretty good write up here. Mentions DC Combined Charging Standard (CCS aka IEC/SAE combo) charging engineered in.
2013 Fiat 500e Electric Car: First Drive

Speedy charging
Every Fiat 500e comes with a built-in battery charger that operates at 6.6 kilowatts, meaning that recharging the pack using a 240-Volt Level 2 charging station takes about 4 hours.
All Fiat Studios in California will be outfitted with four separate charging stations, Fiat says, though the company didn't indicate whether they would be available for us by all electric-car drivers.
And as is standard on most electric cars now, Fiat has modified the navigation system of the 500e to show all electric-car charging station locations.
Fiat engineers also said after the drive that the car was engineered from the start to accept quick charging at 480 Volts and 70 Amps.
That is, it requires only the addition of the necessary hardware to be capable of using new Combined Charging Standard (CCS) fast charging stations when they become available.

(btw, I always feel that the people who refer to "frankenplug" like to think that CHAdeMO is somehow more aesthetically pleasing, when in fact it looks like something that should be fueling a jet airplane, not charging a car.

Yes, juvenile name calling gives a level of superiority and hope that the negative connotation will stick with someone. Then it is puppeted from one person to another like it's the latest cool kid slang. They all like / use the SAE J1772 standard tho. They just don't think the IEC and SAE long term planning and standard works just because the Japanese standard was "first". Everyone continually points out the numbers are so small that the "head start" doesn't matter. The DC chargers will just have dual plugs for a while.

 

[richkae]

Fiat 500 EV:
Pretty good write up here. Mentions DC Combined Charging Standard (CCS aka IEC/SAE combo) charging engineered in.
2013 Fiat 500e Electric Car: First Drive

So they aren't going to sell the cars with it. They can add it later - meaning future models may have it. They are going to wait for the stations to be installed.
Chicken or egg? Advantage: Leaf.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It's not a conspiracy that SAE is trying to block CHAdeMO. A conspiracy would require them doing it in secret. They are being very up front about their socket blocking.
IMO they have no business proposing a standard for a market they don't really participate in.

Wait what? You do realize the J1772 standard being used by all EVs in the US is a SAE standard. If SAE is not participating in the market, then no one is! SAE J1772 DC is just an extension of that standard to add two extra pins for DC charging (as well as PLC signaling for V2G). And SAE is not "blocking" CHAdeMO. They just had to make a decision to either adopt CHAdeMO as the official SAE standard or to adopt the CCS. They chose the CCS.

IEC over in Europe also chose CCS over CHAdeMO. Both organizations have lots of engineers (not just from the automakers, but also from charger makers) and given both chose the CCS there must be a good engineering reason to do so.

The one doing blocking is GM (for their own reasons), but don't let your distaste for GM bleed over to SAE (they are different entities, even though GM is a member of SAE).

Woohoo, 3 out of the 7 have compliance cars in planning stages. I bet that none of them sell more than compliance car levels in the next 3 years.
As far as I am concerned, "planning" a compliance car is not really participating in the market. If they bring it to market in volume, by all means, take them seriously.

The i3 is most definitely not a compliance car. BMW is sinking lots of money into it (the effort is no less than Nissan's effort on the Leaf, and in some regards it's even more since BMW built an entirely new platform for it, while Nissan modified the Versa's platform). The VW and GM cars are compliance vehicles, but I would not write them off just based on that, since it won't be difficult to outnumber the iMIEV on the CHAdeMO side. But my response there is just a rebuttal to the claim that they had no cars planned when they announced the standard, when in fact they had EVs planned even back when the Leaf was not out in the market yet.

I also doubt that the market share will "shift dramatically". Any SAE DC chargers installed will be the least utilized units for the next few years - getting almost zero use unless Tesla makes an adapter for them...

Tesla alone is able to reach 20k EVs in one year (and with an EV that costs 2-3x as much as the Leaf). How hard would it be for the combined volume of the CCS automakers to reach half that (~10k/year like Leaf sales for the past 2 years)? That's really all that's required to get places to install stations (or at least add a compatible connector to existing ones). Most charging stations are under-utilized anyways, so I don't see that as a huge factor in station numbers. As I asked before, how long do people expect the Leaf to hold a virtual EV monopoly? 5 years? 10 years? Forever? Tesla is already eating into that and making it duopoly. The i3 next year could just as well split it in three. There's still plenty of room for others too.

 

[scottf200]

GM cars are compliance vehicles, but I would not write them off just based on that...

Looks to be sold outside of CA/CARB locations.
Link: Chevy Spark EV to be Sold in Europe Too; Will Debut at Geneva Motor Show

 

[stopcrazypp]

Looks to be sold outside of CA/CARB locations.
Link: Chevy Spark EV to be Sold in Europe Too; Will Debut at Geneva Motor Show

Initial markets are CA and Oregon, and maybe expansion to more US markets in the future. But given the nature of it (a conversion of an ICE car), I think most people will file it under compliance. I think the plan is a couple thousand sales per year. It's certainly not as big an effort as GM spent on the Volt.

 

[cwerdna]

Everyone continually points out the numbers are so small that the "head start" doesn't matter. The DC chargers will just have dual plugs for a while.

The ones w/Frankenplug will probably also need to provide either regular J1772 coupled w/the 2 extra pins on a separate connector or a separate Frankenplug handle.

On some of the existing J1772 vehicles (w/o CCS), it doesn't even look like there's room for those two extra pins to physically fit, hence the need for the above.

I get the annoyance/outrage at GM's proposal (no CHAdeMO support at all going forward), but I don't get any opposition to dual connector stations. This is the best way to let the standards compete with minimal impact to consumers.

It does have an impact. Supporting multiple standards increases costs. It also can create confusion amongst governmental agencies and consumers. Most (esp. consumers) don't know anything about BEVs. Some govt agencies passed poorly written laws related to BEVs (e.g. GM Riles CA Electric-Car World (Again) Over AB475 'Charger Sharing' Ban).

Remember DVD vs. DVD players w/DIVX? Some people didn't buy DVD players because of the "confusion". Notice how DVD players took off after DIVX was killed?

There are already LOTS of CHAdeMO chargers about every 40 miles on many of the highways here in WA as well as OR as a part of the "green highway" and I am told in much of Europe and Asia as well.

Yep. See West Coast Green Highway, CHAdeMO Association and Video: Dutch duo drives Nissan Leaf 779.2 miles in... 24 hours.

while Nissan modified the Versa's platform)

Nissan claims the Leaf is built on a dedicated platform.

 

[Bipo]

Last time I checked it had 2 different grounds...

Really? Where? Can you tell me, please

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm optimistic because of the similarities between the Model S connector and SAE DC. Everything I'm seeing points to an SAE DC adapter only being slightly more expensive than the existing AC one. A CHAdeMO adapter would cost quite a bit more. If most stations end up as dual plug stations, if I get a Gen III, I would be able to use them without having to buy a CHAdeMO adapter. A connector is not a very big part of the cost of a DC station, so I don't think dual connector stations will cost significantly more than a single connector one.

It appears your whole issue is whether you personally can save a few bucks on an adapter. At least you're honest.

Whether you have a Frankenplug adapter or not, there are not going to be places in volume (if ever) to use your somewhat cheaper adapter for a LONG TIME.

But, you will be able to use that CHAdeMO adapter now. I know how cheap many EV drivers can be, and I won't be surprised to see many people not buying the CHAdeMO adapter even with stations around... after buying a $100,000 EV. In the LEAF world, there are large numbers of folks who won't pay to charge at public stations and those who will "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" if that is a penny cheaper to operate for a trip.

As to the relative cost of "just adding a Frankenplug connector to an existing CHAdeMO", lets be honest when I say that you really don't care what that might cost the industry so long as you can buy a cheaper adapter.

 

[Dave EV]

Really? Where? Can you tell me, please

First Google hit for "CHAdeMO pin layout": http://www.ev-charging-infrastructure.com/media/downloads/inline/takafumi-anegawa-tepco-11-20.1290790915.pdf
Page 8: PIN 1 = Chassis Ground, PIN 9 = Data Ground

 

[gregincal]

It appears your whole issue is whether you personally can save a few bucks on an adapter. At least you're honest.

Whether you have a Frankenplug adapter or not, there are not going to be places in volume (if ever) to use your somewhat cheaper adapter for a LONG TIME.

But, you will be able to use that CHAdeMO adapter now. I know how cheap many EV drivers can be, and I won't be surprised to see many people not buying the CHAdeMO adapter even with stations around... after buying a $100,000 EV. In the LEAF world, there are large numbers of folks who won't pay to charge at public stations and those who will "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" if that is a penny cheaper to operate for a trip.

As to the relative cost of "just adding a Frankenplug connector to an existing CHAdeMO", lets be honest when I say that you really don't care what that might cost the industry so long as you can buy a cheaper adapter.

I'm not as concerned about it being cheaper, but I'm hoping it might be able to be smaller. If it's just a physical plug adapter without electronics, then it should be able to be just like the existing J1772 adaptor. And since we're in California we know we are getting at least 200 charge stations that it will work with. Anyway, I'll wait and see how it shakes out. I just want more choices for DC charging, and I'm sure Tesla will provide them in due time. There isn't a single CHAdeMO station in a place that would be useful to me yet, so I personally am not rushed.

 

[TonyWilliams]

MNL Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:33 am: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205597#p205597

I know it's common for folks to prop up a Yazaki connector as "CHAdeMO", and of course the pin out is standard, but there are other plugs available. This one is used on Fuji's CHAdeMO chargers... it's actually quite light and easy to handle where the "aircraft refueling nozzle" Yazaki unit is not. No clunky levers (just a push button), no sequence of push/pull, squeeze, release, squeeze:





- - - Updated - - -

First Google hit for "CHAdeMO pin layout": http://www.ev-charging-infrastructure.com/media/downloads/inline/takafumi-anegawa-tepco-11-20.1290790915.pdf
Page 8: PIN 1 = Chassis Ground, PIN 9 = Data Ground

There you go again, throwing out facts !!!! Damn you!!! damn you all to hell ;-)

 

[richkae]

Wait what? You do realize the J1772 standard being used by all EVs in the US is a SAE standard. If SAE is not participating in the market, then no one is! SAE J1772 DC is just an extension of that standard to add two extra pins for DC charging (as well as PLC signaling for V2G). And SAE is not "blocking" CHAdeMO. They just had to make a decision to either adopt CHAdeMO as the official SAE standard or to adopt the CCS. They chose the CCS.

I'm talking about participating in the market for vehicles that need and use fast charging. That market currently consists of Tesla and Nissan.

IEC over in Europe also chose CCS over CHAdeMO. Both organizations have lots of engineers (not just from the automakers, but also from charger makers) and given both chose the CCS there must be a good engineering reason to do so.

That is an assumption with no evidence. Blocking the competitor that is years ahead could just as easily be the only reason.

The one doing blocking is GM (for their own reasons), but don't let your distaste for GM bleed over to SAE (they are different entities, even though GM is a member of SAE).

I assume the big fish control the pond.

The i3 is most definitely not a compliance car. BMW is sinking lots of money into it (the effort is no less than Nissan's effort on the Leaf, and in some regards it's even more since BMW built an entirely new platform for it, while Nissan modified the Versa's platform). The VW and GM cars are compliance vehicles, but I would not write them off just based on that, since it won't be difficult to outnumber the iMIEV on the CHAdeMO side. But my response there is just a rebuttal to the claim that they had no cars planned when they announced the standard, when in fact they had EVs planned even back when the Leaf was not out in the market yet.

Until I see cars in showrooms and resources pushing the car in the entire US market, it is just a compliance car.

Tesla alone is able to reach 20k EVs in one year (and with an EV that costs 2-3x as much as the Leaf). How hard would it be for the combined volume of the CCS automakers to reach half that (~10k/year like Leaf sales for the past 2 years)? That's really all that's required to get places to install stations (or at least add a compatible connector to existing ones). Most charging stations are under-utilized anyways, so I don't see that as a huge factor in station numbers. As I asked before, how long do people expect the Leaf to hold a virtual EV monopoly? 5 years? 10 years? Forever? Tesla is already eating into that and making it duopoly. The i3 next year could just as well split it in three. There's still plenty of room for others too.

It is currently a 2 horse race. I expect Tesla is currently the front runner after 1st quarter 2013.
BMW deserves consideration if and when they have cars in showrooms and salesman who try to sell them.
I think Tesla's success this year will spur a lot of the others to actually do something.

 

[TEG]

I continue to find broken Yazaki "gen 1" CHAdeMO plugs on various Blink QCs.
It will be "good riddance" when they replace with something better.

I think they are contemplating a "new/improved" Yazaki, not the Fujitsu.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I continue to find broken Yazaki "gen 1" CHAdeMO plugs on various Blink QCs.
It will be "good riddance" when they replace with something better.

I think they are contemplating a "new/improved" Yazaki, not the Fujitsu.

I don't expect Ecotality/Blink to be around long term to ever get their act together.