Renew your EV Road Tax

[MrBadger]

The lost fuel duty recovery plan is already underway - its called smart meters and Smart EV chargers,

Time and use charging is already well defined in the transportation industry and has been for many years.

It just needs a government willing to make this fundamental change in road use taxation that will most affect those that use the roads the most at the busiest of times but benefit those that more lightly use the roads at less congested times.

 

[NewbieT]

The lost fuel duty recovery plan is already underway - its called smart meters and Smart EV chargers, A little play with the code and every Kwhr that goes into an EV will be charged 20% VAT rather than the domestic 5%, plus I suspect an additional charge as a new "fuel Duty" can be levied electronically too, so these plus the VED from 2025 should allow MPs to have a bit bigger trough to get stuck into. Oh how they will gorge.

I’m not aware smart EV chargers are made to the same standards as those for required for electricity meters (or calibration requirements). If not, there seems little chance they could be used for tax purposes. #good luck with that.


Accurate within 10%:

The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021

These Regulations are made using powers in the Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018 (c. 18). They prohibit certain types of electric vehicle charge point from being sold or offered for sale unless certain requirements set out in the Regulations are complied with.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[RedMod3]

The lost fuel duty recovery plan is already underway - its called smart meters and Smart EV chargers, A little play with the code and every Kwhr that goes into an EV will be charged 20% VAT rather than the domestic 5%, plus I suspect an additional charge as a new "fuel Duty" can be levied electronically too, so these plus the VED from 2025 should allow MPs to have a bit bigger trough to get stuck into. Oh how they will gorge.

Then my dumb Tesla charger will increase in value, unless people have figured out that using a 32A commando socket also solves the issue, as does the slower Granny.

 

[Irata]

I’m not aware smart EV chargers are made to the same standards as those for required for electricity meters (or calibration requirements). If not, there seems little chance they could be used for tax purposes. #good luck with that.


Accurate within 10%:

The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021

These Regulations are made using powers in the Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018 (c. 18). They prohibit certain types of electric vehicle charge point from being sold or offered for sale unless certain requirements set out in the Regulations are complied with.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Yes, absolutely correct.

It may to some seem an obvious solution to charge a different VAT rate, but the more you try the more complex it becomes.

Billing wouldn't stand up to challenge because domestic car chargers are not designed for this.

It's easy to circumvent. A domestic car charger could easily be "hacked", just disconnect it from the WiFi! They wouldn't stop it charging as it could be in use by someone vulnerable, which opens up another can of worms.

There are many more reasons why it's very complex to do, as mentioned numerous times in this thread.

 

[GlynG]

I only use the Granny at home, but I'm retired and my mileage is low, the 13 amp socket fits perfectly well for my needs and at just a tad over 2Kwhr draw that would never be able to be detected if I was charging the car to be able to differentiate the VAT rates, plus I rarely charge the car overnight as i have solar - so tend to charge for free for 9 months of the year.

The push for smart chargers where the flow of electrons is managed by the energy company you are with - for example Intelligent Octopus, will undoubtedly be able to be measured and a higher rate of VAT applied - In my world computers can fiddle anything and accuracy isn't something they are intrinsically too concerned about - unless they get caught - Fujitsu for example and the Horizon system.

As an aside, I'm with Octopus, was moved to them when my energy company went bust. I have a spreadsheet, maintained it for 15 years, every month I input my meter readings. Since a rate change on the 1st October 2023 my spreadsheet has developed a few inaccuracies, my Bills from Octopus don't match what my spreadsheet predicts - between 2p and 8p differences.

I have now had the time to examine my bills to establish why my spreadsheet is wrong - and I've found Its Octopus that are wrong (They haven't explained that yet - been ignoring me for nearly three weeks now)

The complex calculation to arrive at my consumed Kwhrs is bang on every time - perfect. My meter reads out as cubic metres, so whatever the reading on the dial says - deducted from the last reading I multiply that figure by 1.02264, then multiply by the calorific valve and divide that figure by 3.6 to obtain Kwhrs used.
The simple calculation of multiplying the number of Kwhrs by the cost per Kwhr is where they are going wrong and they are overcharging me.

Real examples below-

1st Oct to 22nd October 2023
526Kwhrs x 6.44p = £33.87 - but charged me - £33.89

23 October - 22 Nov 2023
1790.8Kwhrs x 6.44p = £115.33 - but charged me £115.38

23 Nov - 22 Dec 2023
2590Kwhrs x 6.44p = £166.80 - but charged me £166.87

23 Dec - 31 Dec 2023
774.9 Kwhrs x 6.44 = £49.90 - but charged me £49.92

1st Jan - 22 Jan 2024
1991.8Kwhrs x 6.94p = £ 138.23 - but charged me £138.27

23 Jan - 22 Feb 2024
2032.6Kwhrs x 6.94p = £141.06 - but charged me £141.10

23 Feb - 23 March 2024
1923.6 x 6.94p = £133.50 - but charged me £133.54

This is entirely computerised, so in my opinion they have a flaw in their system, So far Octopus are keeping quiet.

 

[kelvin 660]

Mine is the same! 1,972.6 x 6.99 = £13,7.89 and they charged me £137.92

Maybe the error is in the conversion from Cubic meters to kWh, but at least they should show the correct kWh used. And in my case it would have to be 1,973.1 kWh to make the calculation correct...

 

[Pink Duck]

They are showing rounded consumption to 1 decimal place, but are calculating with 3 decimal places. Hence the difference.

To calculate yourself you'll need to download the raw CSV data from the Energy Usage page or use a third-party interface with their API.

 

[GlynG]

Mine is the same! 1,972.6 x 6.99 = £13,7.89 and they charged me £137.92

View attachment 1038271

Maybe the error is in the conversion from Cubic meters to kWh, but at least they should show the correct kWh used. And in my case it would have to be 1,973.1 kWh to make the calculation correct...

View attachment 1038273

Octopus use 5 decimal places to calculate - ie the 1.02264 - plus calorific and divide 3.6 - and they are spot on.
The bill is printed with the KWHrs used and the price per KWhr and I have rounded up - see below-

171 units on my meter
171 x 1.02264 = 174.87144
174.87144 x 39.6 (the announced average calorific value for this bill) = 6924.909
6924.909 divided by 3.6 = 1923.5858
Octopus rounds up this figure to 1923.6

1923.6 times 6.94p = £133.49784 - rounded up to £133.50
Octopus charged me £133.54

Never in last 15 years have i had an anomaly until Oct 2023
Octopus have 5.5 million customers - If they charged everyone 4p too much that's £220,000 extra per month to them.

You cant publish a figure and then not do the maths in the manner you have told the customer you have done. This has to be a computer error, no other explanation.
Octopus can choose to ignore me if they like, I have spoken to them twice in two weeks but no one confirms anyone is doing anything, the chap on the phone was going through my calculations live and he too agrees I have an error.
I have also emailed Martin Lewis to see if he is interested in my findings.

I did try working out what may be wrong with one bill and if they charged per Kwhr at 6.9422 rather than 6.94 it would be accurate - but using the same formula with another bill didn't correct that - so they would be inconsistent with their inconsistency - and surely you cant advertise 6.94p per Kwhr and charge 6.9422 could you?

The fact @kelvin 660 also has this anomaly suggests my issue isn't isolated, I mean, how many people actually check their bills for complete accuracy?

 

[RedMod3]

My billing is now accurate the the penny daily. They take the kW consumed to 3dp; my earlier calculations were to only 2dp.

 

[Pink Duck]

Also have to watch out for the shortened tariff rate and the full precision one published in the regional differences PDF.

My gas tariff since 1st April is 5.963 p/kWh + 28.949 p/day. Last statement text was “@ 6.96p/kWh” (before 5% VAT), when really 6.9610 p/kWh.

 

[GlynG]

Also have to watch out for the shortened tariff rate and the full precision one published in the regional differences PDF.

My gas tariff since 1st April is 5.963 p/kWh + 28.949 p/day. Last statement text was “@ 6.96p/kWh” (before 5% VAT), when really 6.9610 p/kWh.

I understand what your saying, however, until October last year my bills have always matched my spreadsheet (from many different energy companies) - so something has changed they haven't informed me of.
I know nothing of a shortened or precision tariff rate - indeed, first time I've heard the phrase - but whatever Octopus are using I should be made aware of it.

As far as I'm concerned, when tariffs change, daily rate etc then I'm told about it in advance - I then have the option to reject the changes and find another supplier or chose to continue my business with them and accept the changes - This is a contract.

If for example a supplier says 6.94p per Kwhr would it not be a breach of contract for them charge 6.9499 per Kwhr? or indeed any variance from our contract. If the calculation to determine the number of Kwhrs used goes to 5 decimal places it sort of indicates how accurate and detailed they want to be - and if your applying that degree of decimal places to one part of the calculation then they should also produce the cost per Kwhr to the same 5 decimal places

My bill specifically indicates the number of Kwhrs used and the cost per Kwhr - that simple maths is all that should be used to calculate my bill.

So far Octopus haven't responded.

I more than willing to take this a lot further - breach of contract, unfair contract terms act etc - whatever it takes to resolve this, If its a simple error then put it right and we go forward without issues and i can amend my spreadsheet to as many decimal places as needed to get an accurate figure.

 

[Mark_T]

Smart Chargers however are more likely, and far easier. The problem there is there are plenty of granny and "non smart" chargers around at the moment, and people can easily switch to those.

Easy enough to fix, some suppliers are already only allowing customers to get a lower tariff rate for the power that actually goes to the EV, not the entire home consumption.

So you'll have a choice, use the granny charger and pay the full tariff rate, or get the reduced rate but have the tax added to it...

 

[RedMod3]

Easy enough to fix, some suppliers are already only allowing customers to get a lower tariff rate for the power that actually goes to the EV, not the entire home consumption.

So you'll have a choice, use the granny charger and pay the full tariff rate, or get the reduced rate but have the tax added to it...

Or pull the full 32A /7kW out of a commando socket.

 

[Trevel]

Just picked up my used one is there any way of getting the 12 months extra tax should I just leave it until march 31st next year or does it have to be taxed now probably a daft question so bear with me

 

[Jason71]

Just picked up my used one is there any way of getting the 12 months extra tax should I just leave it until march 31st next year or does it have to be taxed now probably a daft question so bear with me

It has to be taxed now. Even though it is free you still have to tax it.
when it is due in March next year for the 1st of April I think you will still be able to tax it for free for another 12 months so long as you do it before April 1st. Many on here disagree with me.
If I am wrong then you just SORN it and Tax it again from March 1st 2025 and get 11 months free.
or play it really really safe and re tax it in Feb next year and again in March.
Your choice. Either way you should be able to get at least an additional 11 months free after April 2025

 

[Trevel]

It has to be taxed now. Even though it is free you still have to tax it.
when it is due in March next year for the 1st of April I think you will still be able to tax it for free for another 12 months so long as you do it before April 1st. Many on here disagree with me.
If I am wrong then you just SORN it and Tax it again from March 1st 2025 and get 11 months free.
or play it really really safe and re tax it in Feb next year and again in March.
Your choice. Either way you should be able to get at least an additional 11 months free after April 2025

Thank you very much