[Rant] locals clogging the Highland Park, IL supercharger

[stopcrazypp]

Was poking on supercharge.info and noticed the following estimates:

Metro Area	Population	Supercharging Locations
Baltimore	3M	0
Charlotte	2.3M	1
Washington DC	6M	1.2 (temp one in Bethesda is terrible)
Atlanta	5.6M	2
LA	4M	7
Chicago	9.7M	8
London	8.6M	9 (+1 offline)
Hong Kong	7M	10 (2 are time-restricted)

What's my point? Not sure I have one except that the intent and the use of the Supercharger network for "local" charging are rather complicated. OK to do in Hong Kong, but not in DC?

This was subject of discussion in the local supercharging thread. Tesla did deliberately build superchargers in London and Hong Kong for people who had no access to home charging. However, I doubt they intended them to be used by people with home charging (or where it is trivial to install) to use them just to save money. Some of the LA stations probably fall into that category (although you have to be careful, since LA is a very large area).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...del-S/page20?p=1030842&viewfull=1#post1030842

I think it makes sense to convert those city stations to paid stations (and rebrand so as to not conflict with free supercharging promises). I made that suggestion back in that thread, and I just carried it over here. These stations can serve the same functionality as corner gas stations for those without home charging (it may also make sense to sign up some third party franchises for this paid network).

 

[Chris TX]

Maybe if there was a sign that said "Press button if you're a long distance traveler and all charging spots are filled". It would activate a bright red blinking light that was visible to everyone. Surely, one or more locals would get the hint?

 

[woof]

Way back in Tesla history (September 2012), I was at the grand opening party for the first Tesla store in MA. at the Natick Mall. George B. was there, and the first news that Supercharging was a thing, and that it was going to be free forever, had just broken that week. Myself and others had a discussion with Mr. B., and we asked quite pointedly how can it possibly be free forever, because as more cars hit the road there will inevitably be congestion. His answer was "We'll just keep building more."

 

[pvogel]

Nobody here is thinking like Elon. This is effectively solved between summon, auto park, and the 'robo-snake' charge cable: Pull in to the SpC slot, snake plugs you in, charge starts. Charge completes, snake unplugs you, car leaves SpC slot and parks in nearby open parking slot and sends you a text telling you it's precise location.

'Locals' who do not have a road trip on their trip planner would get unplugged and moved automatically as soon as a non-local road tripping tesla arrived with a need to charge.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Way back in Tesla history (September 2012), I was at the grand opening party for the first Tesla store in MA. at the Natick Mall. George B. was there, and the first news that Supercharging was a thing, and that it was going to be free forever, had just broken that week. Myself and others had a discussion with Mr. B., and we asked quite pointedly how can it possibly be free forever, because as more cars hit the road there will inevitably be congestion. His answer was "We'll just keep building more."

The model they laid out in 2012 (before city superchargers were a thing) will work with that strategy. Supercharger demand didn't hit past 5% until mid-2014. If you assume industrial electricity costs at $0.05-0.10/kWh, 200k mile car life, 200k*5%=10k miles and 3500kWh (35kWh/100mi), and only $175-350 per car. This fits under the $500 per car their SEC filings said they set aside to maintain the supercharger network.
http://insideevs.com/5-model-s-miles-supercharged-miles/

However, for a local driver that does 100% of charging at superchargers (as in the case of city superchargers), the demand is 20x that, which brings electricity cost to $3500-7000. This is why I suggest city superchargers should be paid stations.

 

[ChadFeldheimer]

'Locals' who do not have a road trip on their trip planner would get unplugged and moved automatically as soon as a non-local road tripping tesla arrived with a need to charge.

But anyone can plot a trip in trip planner, even locals... Summon and robo-snake only fundamentally solve the problem of cars lingering after their charge is done.

With the hindsight of knowing where each car traveled before and after each supercharging stop, Tesla knows exactly which charging sessions (and even what percentage of each charging session) was for long distance travel. Tesla could then bill non-long-distance supercharging at a nominal rate. I suspect that even with a very conservative algorithm for identifying local travel, this would all but eliminate the 1 percenters who abuse the system.

It's unfortunate that it would have to come to this, but it is inevitable at some point.

 

[Fezzik]

Assuming Tesla meets their predicted 500K production rate in 2020 and beyond, other Supercharging options are likely to develop. Without a dramatic change in current usage policy, increasing the density of SC sites seems inevitable. Tesla has started to wade into the waters of partnering with other businesses to sponsor Superchargers. Perhaps this effort can eventually evolve into a deal with one or more large national chains that could service those legitimately needing to charge and also the cheapskates. Maybe a Sam's Club or Costco? Okay, a small membership fee to shop, but Supercharging could remain free. Exploring the potential for this type of energy sponsorship is ripe for opportunity, and has answers for WIIFM skeptics.

A lot of costco's had spots for electric vehicle charging. I think having superchargers here would be great, but I doubt it will happen.

This thread blew up too geez.

 

[ORB]

For now, perhaps simple peer pressure from Tesla owners could help. I don't know what the legalities of homemade posted signage would be at the SpC stations, but if some firm (but courteously worded) reminder notes about supercharging etiquette were posted at abuse-prone SpC's by other owners (on the fixtures, not the cars), then abusers might feel a bit guilty. Even hand-lettered notes can be effective (and may even project more sincerity than those that look too "institutional"). Perhaps Tesla might not object if someone wishing to post such a note or two at a given SpC were to let them know about their intention.

Oliver

 

[Electroman]

Which means that as Tesla continues to succeed, they will either need to build out a ton more charging infrastructure, or modify the deal. Those are the only two options

.. or Tesla might be forced to close shop and move on. And these selfish suckers might end up achieving just that.. and then we will all be driving glorified expensive Leafs

 

[AMPd]

.. or Tesla might be forced to close shop and move on. And these selfish suckers might end up achieving just that.. and then we will all be driving glorified expensive Leafs

The model s is not even close to being a "glorified expensive leaf" even without the sc network.

 

[smartypnz]

Have had an S for almost 3 years. Also planning to get a 3. I certainly do not mind paying to use an SC with the 3 and will use it when I travel, and occasionally close to home, if needed to get me home. But, charging will not solve the crowding problem. As there is abuse now, there will be a multiplication of the problem when mass production of more Teslas capable of Supercharging comes to be.

Solution will be a new faster charging system at a low design cost to make them flourish like the current gas stations. I have faith that Elon's techs are working toward this and may surprise us all shortly.

 

[trils0n]

I wonder if a text (in addition to app notification) would be an effective means to get people who linger at the Superchargers to move. "Your car has finished charging. Please vacate the supercharger stall so others may use the charger" "X minutes ago, your car finished charging, please move your vehicle so others may use the charger" Maybe they could change the app message to include a statement to move your vehicle instead of just saying: 'charging is almost done' or 'charging is complete'. Maybe a little nag would be effective (nags seem effective in upsetting certain Tesla owners :tongue.

It might be helpful for Tesla to explicitly state that "free supercharging" or "free long distance travel" is conditional upon meeting certain good etiquette standards like moving your vehicle when you are done charging. Some owners I've spoken to who have left their cars at Superchargers long after finishing charging seem to have a very defensive attitude like "well Tesla said I could use it, so I am going to". Tesla provides no guidance to proper etiquette for new EV owners, and it might help discourage some people from abusing the chargers if they heard the rules directly from Tesla -- perhaps a Supercharger use orientation as part of purchasing/delivering a Tesla.

 

[kort677]

Solution will be a new faster charging system at a low design cost to make them flourish like the current gas stations.

there is one huge flaw with this concept of chargers becoming as ubiquitous as gas filling stations is that the gas stations sell fuel for profit.....

 

[pvogel]

And some charging infrastructure's do do. Tesla takes the view that things are different with BEV, you are effectively buying all your fuel up-front with the purchase of the car. Either model will work, especially when we reach the state where the majority of supercharger sites are supplied with solar and/or wind power located on or near site.

Fundamentally the cost of electricity will always be lower than the cost of fuel-grade gasoline. So you have more opportunity to shift the profit center away from the fuel station.

Plenty of profit to be had in the businesses surrounding the fuel station. Even if supercharging doubles in speed.

 

[electracity]

Either model will work, especially when we reach the state where the majority of supercharger sites are supplied with solar and/or wind power located on or near site.

No, either model won't work. Anyone offering fixed priced fuel up front on an average priced car will attract the biggest users of supercharging. The fixed price of supercharger "fuel" works now due to the high price of the car. Currently, only a few mathematically challenged people are motivated to buy a Tesla to save money.

Solar and wind at a supercharger site isn't a great match for the power requirements. The throttle issue with a full station would probably become much worse than today. With higher wattage and more cars the situation becomes worse.

 

[ohmman]

I wonder if a text (in addition to app notification) would be an effective means to get people who linger at the Superchargers to move. "Your car has finished charging. Please vacate the supercharger stall so others may use the charger" "X minutes ago, your car finished charging, please move your vehicle so others may use the charger" Maybe they could change the app message to include a statement to move your vehicle instead of just saying: 'charging is almost done' or 'charging is complete'. Maybe a little nag would be effective (nags seem effective in upsetting certain Tesla owners :tongue.

I like the idea of changing the language on the push notifications, and adding a text IF the owner doesn't have the app available for push. Repeated messages about the car being done charging (every 1-5 minutes) seems much more effective than what they have now, and from a development perspective would be nearly free.

 

[dgpcolorado]

there is one huge flaw with this concept of chargers becoming as ubiquitous as gas filling stations is that the gas stations sell fuel for profit.....

Not necessarily. My understanding is that gas sales at most stations are at near breakeven levels and the majority of profit comes from the associated convenience store. Not that pay-to-charge stations couldn't also work if well located.

 

[electracity]

I doubt gas stations will survive the transition to EV. With EV fill times of 15-20 minutes, larger retailers would likely find it worthwhile to provide convenient charging. In cities higher end store could provide valet charging.

Of course the 90% at home charging rate for EV doesn't bode well for gas stations either. There are probably a number of changes brought by EV, even without autonomous cars. Of course with an autonomous car we just tell it to go get a charge and a wash.

 

[tomas]

For a while I thought this thread was turning into just another rehash, but it is generating interesting ideas. Y'all are convincing me that the "gas station" paradigm is going to change. 90% at home charging means that a "just a charging station business" could not get to critical mass. So, charging has to be another trick for some other business. For long distance travel, we already know. Hotels: check. Restaurants: check. Some suburban/small city winners: malls or superstores. Urban yet to be determined. Could be parking lot operators, especially if they can rig it to charge, then move the car. Free charging could be a loss leader for a business with something else to gain (malls, restaurants, hotels), or a value/cost added service (parking lots). Biggest obstacle: While HPWC or Level II destination charging is just a couple of 240 slots in existing electric service - a supercharger is a major capital upgrade to someone's parking lot and electrical service. Also, the electricity does cost money. And, someone has to maintain it. I don't think Tesla can or should try to be the sole, at-scale provider - even for Tesla cars. The good news is that in a free market, problems like this get solved. If people flock to EV cars because of the many advantages, entrepreneurs will figure out a way to charge them.

 

[James Anders]

there is one huge flaw with this concept of chargers becoming as ubiquitous as gas filling stations is that the gas stations sell fuel for profit.....

Very little profit in the sale of gasoline. This is why many gas stations are going the "mini-mart" route.

There's a great opportunity for convenience stores, coffee houses (i.e. Starbucks) to add charging stations.