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ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I'm trying to say your argument, which I interpret as "install lots and lots of level 1 chargers, the electricity is basically free and has little impact on your connection to the grid" is nonsensical.
Plug comes out, adapter stays on, you throw over the cord holder and you drive away.
There's been quite a few Tesla adapters found on J-1772 cords.
And now that you bring up that it's locked, so is the mobile connector.
But the most important thing to remember, is your original question
"When I've tried to talk to people who would be involved in this sort of decision, they seem to have no understanding of what level 1 means, or why it would be very easy to provide.
How can this be promoted?"
YOUR way of doing it is by your own admissions not working.
So open your mind to solutions that may work.
Please show me where I said "install lots and lots" of level 1 chargers rather than a smaller number of level 2 chargers. I think you are reading what is not there. I may well have pointed out that they are cheaper than level 2 chargers.
You seem to be trying to pick a fight or something. What is your point???
Yes, if you make an argument for me, then you can make it as absurd as you wish.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Your words, boss. “Install many L1 chargers, they’re basically free.”
Which is nothing like...
If a parking lot has 1,000 EVs, there need to be 1,000 EVSE to support them. It's much more expensive to add 1,000 level 2 EVSE than level 1 EVSE. The electrical connection would have to support a much higher maximum capacity. There certainly is potential for the electric bill to be much higher as well, since a level 2 EVSE will draw much higher current when first plugged in which will tend to be clustered during the times people show up at the airport. The demand charges for having level 2 EVSE can be much higher.
Of the four quotes you provided, which are false?
I especially like how you continue to make up your own statement at the end, and make it seem I'm saying that. You are literally putting words in my mouth.
No, this is false.
I have been noticing this thread has been continually muddling two different concepts as if they are the same and flowing back and forth between the two as if they are the same thing.
Level 1 versus Level 2:
This is just the voltage level difference between 120V or 240V. If receptacles were being installed, it's the same wire, and it's about the same price for the breakers and outlets. There's really no cost difference at all between Level 1 or Level 2.
EVSE device or not?
This is where the real discussion and disagreement comes from, and it does have some real pros and cons about cost, reliability, maintenance, availability, etc. Actually providing the EVSE instead of an outlet is an extra few hundred dollars per space, plus eventual equipment damage/replacement, service contracts, etc. But it does give the possibility for the place to meter for the electricity cost.
I have no particular opinion or side in this, but it was getting painful seeing the unrelated issue of Level 1/2 getting mixed up with the EVSE equipment question.
In all cases, the level of charging is based on power, not voltage. However, level 1/2 was chosen to approximately fit the power available from a household outlet, vs. a more powerful connection. In North America and Japan that relates to 120V vs. 240V, but most other areas, all power is 240V or even 3 phase.
Level 1 is conventionally 15 amps, or sometimes 20 amps, so in the ballpark of 1.44 to 1.8 kW. Very few level 2 EVSE are less than 6 kW or 30 amps and ranges up to a 50 amp circuit. So level 2 will require heavier wire for each unit. But the real cost is the higher capacity of the connection to the grid and the higher operating costs from the demand charges.
Level 2 charging will nearly always be complete in less than a day, while level 1 charging can take up to three or four days. This makes the demand level more consistent for level 1, lowering the demand charges, which can be very significant for level 2 charging. Proper timed charging could mitigate the demand charges, but Tesla doesn't properly implement such timer controls, so this is not viable.
The charging speed is, sure, but that's not cost of installation.
Level 1 is 120V, regardless of the amps.
That's pretty oversimplified. There are whole ranges of products, including plenty that are for 15 or 20A circuits. And again, EVSE products are a separate unrelated topic from the voltage difference of Level 1 or 2.
That is also false. I covered that earlier. You use exactly the same wire for 120V or 240V connections. It just has to be the right thickness for the amp level.
Yes, demand charge issues can be a real factor. But the higher power may be more useful for the users, so that's a strategy balancing decision depending on the circumstance.
And yes, I like the last paragraph.
RayK
Active Member
It's mostly true that Level 2 charging will require heavier gauge wire since I believe that the lowest amperage, commonly used 240V socket is 30A, whereas the highest amperage 120V socket is 20A. Sure there are outliers such as NEMA 5-50 and 6-15 but when was the last time you saw those outlets?
Higher current costs more to install. Every level 2 EVSE I've seen is higher current than any 120V outlet I've seen.
There's no point in debating this. Especially since not everyplace even has 120V. Level 1 is lower power than level 2 and lower current, so cheaper install.
Tell that to people in Europe/UK.
Not sure what you mean here. Are you telling me you've seen 15A, 240V EVSE? I think we are crossing over into absurd points.
Exactly! Level 2 uses higher currents than level 1 and so thicker wire.
I'm not going to continue to debate this issue with you. You started off with the misunderstanding that the definition of level 1 vs. 2 is simply 120V vs. 240V. Until you understand that the charging level is set by the power level and not the voltage, you won't understand anything else that we are discussing.
You need to return to the point being discussed. I'm tired of trying to steer you back on track. Go read the damn conversation.
Good for you!
ATPMSD
Active Member
There has been a lot of discussion on whether 120V outlets or EVSEs are better (I am in the 120V camp for long term charging - just do not need the extra expense of installing and maintenance of EVSEs in a long-term lot), but let’s get back to your original question. As a business they care about their image and the bottom line. So just make a business case they can understand. Here are a few points:
- Image: Installation of outlets for use by EVs shows the lot owner is a supporter of the EV community!
- Revenue: Having EV outlets will draw in business from EV owners who might park at another lot
- Revenue: They could also add a nominal fee for using the outlets
RayK
Active Member
When wired directly, 240V EVSE only needs the two hot wires and a safety ground, while 120V needs the hot, neutral and safety ground. The only real difference is the amp rating, and so the cost.
My original post was directly addressing long term airport parking. The airports where I park, the long term parking is in well lit, outdoor lots. I don't think there is a lot of concern from the airports about "supporting" the EV community, other than being able to post a sign or something similar. I don't think they care much about competing with other airports or other parking around their airport.
They could add a fee for using the charging, but that could be a bit complicated. The easy way would be to either cordon off a section of the parking for charging, or just make the entire lot charging capable. But we still have over 95% of people who are not able to use charging. That leaves charging spots that require a direct payment. This gets into the messier parts of EV charging, how to collect reasonable fees. Then there's the whole idle fee thing, which some providers will want to charge, even at a level 1 spot. That's another reason why I'm promoting level 1 charging. With the lower rate and cheaper equipment, it can probably be ignored and simply provided for free.
If you park for a day, you will probably be in a different lot, with quicker access, but a higher rate. A level 1 charger could completely charge an EV in three or four days. That electricity cost is around $15 max. Not much cost really. I tend to park for a week or more. I pay some $72 for parking, so $15 is not a huge chunk of that. But looking at all the combinations of stays and charging amounts, the physical issues it gets very messy, very quickly to find a way for everyone to be accommodated.
I have no idea how to have a meaningful conversation about this with the airport. They clearly don't know anything about EV parking. I wrote them about level 1 charging. Their response was a marketing oriented blurb about how they've gotten federal money to install a few level 2 EVSE and a handful of level 3 EVSE, but nothing that you could simply plug into and leave your car while you fly. That's my goal. Getting charging installed that would have no idle fees. Level 1 charging is the optimal connection for that!
You're stating this as if it's always true. It's not. Current levels versus voltage levels don't have to be tied together like that. When my friend Don got his first electric car, he used a 240V 20A circuit. When my friend Jeff got his first electric car, he used a 120V 30A circuit. The level 1 circuit was higher amp and so needed thicker more expensive wire. These are real examples. Level 2 isn't always higher amp.
Yes. It's not absurd.
No it doesn't always.
Ehhhh...I think I know what certification thing you're referring to, which is just not used. It talks about things like direct DC charging over J1772 plug pins, which was never implemented in the industry.
So if you want to learn about this, there are plenty of places you can:
The complete guide to Level 1 vs. Level 2 vs. Level 3 charging for EVs — ChargeLab
Level 1 vs. Level 2 vs. Level 3 charging stations: What’s the difference? Here’s everything you need to know about EV charging levels.
chargelab.co
Right. For a 5-15 versus a 6-15, they use the exact same wire, so same cost.
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