Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.

[JRP3]

It's no fun to have to go to work for example, and finding out that there is a problem with your car, and the only one that could fix it is you.

Or you could look at it as having 24 hour service at the end of your fingertips :wink: Instant, highly motivated service personnel always on the scene. But yeah, most people would not look at it that way. My main point in this whole discussion is I think Jack over estimates the importance and influence of the DIY crowd. In his most recent video he once again returns to this myth by claiming that OEM EV buyers are mostly his viewers. Considering the numbers of EV's and plug in hybrids sold to date and the average of less than 2K views of his videos on youtube I think it's safe to say that OEM EV buyers are mostly not his viewers.

 

[Doug_G]

I have to agree on that point. I'd never heard of the guy.

 

[sranger]

Or you could look at it as having 24 hour service at the end of your fingertips :wink: Instant, highly motivated service personnel always on the scene. But yeah, most people would not look at it that way. My main point in this whole discussion is I think Jack over estimates the importance and influence of the DIY crowd. In his most recent video he once again returns to this myth by claiming that OEM EV buyers are mostly his viewers. Considering the numbers of EV's and plug in hybrids sold to date and the average of less than 2K views of his videos on youtube I think it's safe to say that OEM EV buyers are mostly not his viewers.

I like working on cars, so it is a natural fit for me. I like knowing how all of this works. I could have just bought a leaf and more or less had the same range and performance of my EVThing, with more creature comforts, but it just did not appeal to me.

He gets a lot more viewers than that. (The weekly viewer count is usually 15,000-20,000) Most people watch the show from the Amazon feeds that do not show up in the Youtube view counts.

I have been to the last two EVCCON events and even though there were only about 200 people there, it was a very impressive mix of people from around the world. People from other countries made up about 30% of the mix. However, he is correct in that most people who have done an EVBuild also own an OEM EV.... (at least the vast majority of the few hundred I have corresponded with over the last two year do)

Jack can definitely can be abrasive and does not have much of a filter. I am amazed that he even continues to do the shows and puts in the effort and funds needed to sustain it. Like most people, he is quite different in person that he is on the show. I have found him quite fun and interesting to be around.

 

[JRP3]

Even if all of the 20,000 viewers of his show bought OEM EV's, which they certainly did not, considering that Nissan alone has sold 100,000 LEAF's, that rather proves the point that it is not his viewers that are purchasing most of the OEM EV's. Since I'm a member of a number of DIY sites as well as TMC and Nissan LEAF ownership sites, as well as occasionally perusing some of the others, I can state fairly confidently that there is a small number of cross pollinators. The number of people at EVCON, obviously some of the most dedicated EV fans, who also own OEM's, is not representative of the general population of OEM EV buyers. It's just another example of Jack exaggerating and trying to create a reality that does not exist. Frankly I don't get the motivation, he doesn't need to do it, it doesn't make the show more informative or interesting. Likewise his latest blatant misinformation campaign claiming that Tesla is replacing the entire EVSE, when in fact it's just the NEMA 14-50 adapter. As an EV enthusiast, Tesla stock holder and car owner, you'd think he'd avoid spreading potentially damaging misinformation. It's not the first time either, in fact all too frequent that he gets basic things wrong, puts them out as facts, and rarely makes a correction.

 

[sranger]

I miss understood you. I thought you meant that most of his viewers who build a DYI car did not also own an OEM EV.... I know that most of the people I have talked to who did a conversion also own (or are buying) an OEM car...

Yea, he did get the plug recall wrong... He does make mistakes. You obviously dislike him and want to dismiss any contributions he had made to the EV movement. On that point we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

When I first read some of these posts I was a little surprised at how many people completely dismissed the contributions of the DYI crowd and said all of the builds were junk or of no value. Like I said I just disagree with most of that....

 

[qwk]

When I first read some of these posts I was a little surprised at how many people completely dismissed the contributions of the DYI crowd and said all of the builds were junk or of no value. Like I said I just disagree with most of that....

They aren't junk, I think that shortcuts due to cost would be a better term.

 

[sranger]

They aren't junk, I think that shortcuts due to cost would be a better term.

At least to me, that is just a different way of saying that you think that they are junk or a waste of money....

I have been a true gear head since I was 14. I have friends that run hotrod shops and do some true show quality cars. I also know that most hotrods and restorations (of any type) are in the $50,000 to $100,000 range. So I do not see a $30-40K EV conversion being all that big of a deal.

Like I said, you may not believe this way, it is just the way you come across, to me, with your choice of wording...

This will be my last post here. Either these DYI cars will help the world convert to EV's or it wont. Arguing about it is kind of pointless...

 

[JRP3]

You obviously dislike him and want to dismiss any contributions he had made to the EV movement.

That is a completely inaccurate statement. I have clearly stated that I do appreciate the contributions he has made, especially to the DIY EV community. However I do not give him a "pass" when he makes blatantly incorrect, and in some ways dangerous, statements, especially when he fails to correct his errors when they are pointed out. Actually I have given him more slack than I would EV detractors but some things must be pointed out and corrected.

 

[qwk]

At least to me, that is just a different way of saying that you think that they are junk or a waste of money....

Either these DYI cars will help the world convert to EV's or it wont. Arguing about it is kind of pointless...

Taking shortcuts doesn't necessarily make anything junk, although it does compromise reliability. This approach is also very common in the ICE modification world, so it's not just EV's. I personally think that the Chinese knock-off parts market has a lot to do with it. Most any car modification project is a money hole, at least in the sense that you will never recoup even close to what you put in, which makes it that much more important to build what you want and use quality parts.

DIY EV's haven't convinced the world to switch to driving electric for the past 50+ years, so expecting it now is kind of silly. Trying the same thing and expecting different results....

 

[JRP3]

Things should really get interesting once enough wrecked OEM EV's start hitting the market. Just imagine what some of the top custom car builders can do with a Model S motor coupled with a small high C rate battery pack in a smaller vehicle, maybe a Corvette, or something with AWD. The top custom rods are much better built than OEM ICE's, the same will eventually be true of EV's.

 

[sranger]

DIY EV's haven't convinced the world to switch to driving electric for the past 50+ years, so expecting it now is kind of silly. Trying the same thing and expecting different results....

Sorry , I had to respond that that statement.

Quality (and safe) Lithium batteries have only been widely available for about 5 years now. The same is true with 100+ hp three phase drive systems with regenerative braking. These two items make a Hugh differences in the quality and reliability of these DYI builds so I think comparing the current builds to the ones 50 years ago is simply not valid.....

 

[dsm363]

Sorry , I had to respond that that statement.

Quality (and safe) Lithium batteries have only been widely available for about 5 years now. The same is true with 100+ hp three phase drive systems with regenerative braking. These two items make a Hugh differences in the quality and reliability of these DYI builds so I think comparing the current builds to the ones 50 years ago is simply not valid.....

Very very few people in this world would ever consider a DIY electric car. That is simply a fact. That doesn't make them junk or a waste of time just not the way we will transition from ICEs to EVs. I'd consider them more of a passion for the people that covert them. OEM cars will nearly always sell more to the masses than kit or conversion cars. Most people don't have the skill or the knowledge (or desire) to take on such projects.

 

[sranger]

Very very few people in this world would ever consider a DIY electric car. That is simply a fact. That doesn't make them junk or a waste of time just not the way we will transition from ICEs to EVs. I'd consider them more of a passion for the people that covert them. OEM cars will nearly always sell more to the masses than kit or conversion cars. Most people don't have the skill or the knowledge (or desire) to take on such projects.

You completely missed my point. These vehicles draw the attention of people who might otherwise never consider an Electric vehicle. In this respect I believe that they do and will continue to have a significant impact on the adoption of electric vehicles...

 

[dsm363]

You completely missed my point. These vehicles draw the attention of people who might otherwise never consider an Electric vehicle. In this respect I believe that they do and will continue to have a significant impact on the adoption of electric vehicles...

Really? You are maybe talking about a few hundred people a year unless you have data to show tens of thousands of people are converting ICEs to electric. I wouldn't classify that as a significant impact on the transition for ICE to electric. That doesn't mean reaching people who would never normally consider an EV is a bad thing just that doesn't represent the general market. No mainstream consumer would even consider a conversion car anymore than they would buy a kit car from the back of someone's garage. Most people want a new car from a major manufacturer or a used car from the same. Even Tesla is a drop in the bucket in new car sales.

 

[palmer_md]

I think the one thing we can all agree to is that if it were not for Tesla, the only EV's would be conversions. Tesla has forced the hand of all the other manufacturers to build something. And with Tesla's success, they all now know that EV's are not going to go away like they did at the turn of the century.

 

[sranger]

Really? You are maybe talking about a few hundred people a year unless you have data to show tens of thousands of people are converting ICEs to electric. I wouldn't classify that as a significant impact on the transition for ICE to electric. That doesn't mean reaching people who would never normally consider an EV is a bad thing just that doesn't represent the general market. No mainstream consumer would even consider a conversion car anymore than they would buy a kit car from the back of someone's garage. Most people want a new car from a major manufacturer or a used car from the same. Even Tesla is a drop in the bucket in new car sales.

I got it, you completely dismiss any benefit from the DYI crowd.....

- - - Updated - - -

I think the one thing we can all agree to is that if it were not for Tesla, the only EV's would be conversions. Tesla has forced the hand of all the other manufacturers to build something. And with Tesla's success, they all now know that EV's are not going to go away like they did at the turn of the century.

Yep and is also fair to point out that the early Tesla designs were started from the DYI crowd....

 

[dsm363]

Convert ICE to Electric

I got it, you completely dismiss any benefit from the DYI crowd.....

- - - Updated - - -



Yep and is also fair to point out that the early Tesla designs were started from the DYI crowd....

Where did I dismiss them? You are saying conversion cars are a major force in moving people from ICE to EV and I'm trying to explain that is likely not the case. That takes nothing away from the skill, passion and work they put into these projects. Just that your average consumer (mass market) wouldn't think twice about buying a car like that. They want something from Ford, BMW, Nissan and maybe Tesla one day. Those statements were not attacks on the DIY community so not sure why you read that into what I wrote.

Again, how many thousands of EV conversion cars are there a year?

 

[sranger]

Where did I dismiss them? You are saying conversion cars are a major force in moving people from ICE to EV and I'm trying to explain that is likely not the case. That takes nothing away from the skill, passion and work they put into these projects. Just that your average consumer (mass market) wouldn't think twice about buying a car like that. They want something from Ford, BMW, Nissan and maybe Tesla one day. Those statements were not attacks on the DIY community so not sure why you read that into what I wrote.

Again, how many thousands of EV conversion cars are there a year?

Over the summer I talked to hundreds of people several went on to buy/Lease an EV. There are thousands of people doing these builds. If each one of these people show there work to hundreds of people it does in my opinion have a positive effect.

 

[dsm363]

Over the summer I talked to hundreds of people several went on to buy/Lease an EV. There are thousands of people doing these builds. If each one of these people show there work to hundreds of people it does in my opinion have a positive effect.

I agree with you. You previously said conversion cars had a significant effect on the market. With 16 million cars sold a year in the US even Tesla's 26,000 cars is a blip is all I was trying to say. The people doing the conversions know what they are doing with cars. The general public doesn't so seeing big companies like Nissan and small companies like Tesla have manufactured cars on the road likely has a bigger impact. It's all about risk tolerance. Most families want to be able to take their car somewhere to get fixed if there are problems. That can be more difficult with a DIY car.

 

[sranger]

I agree with you. You previously said conversion cars had a significant effect on the market. With 16 million cars sold a year in the US even Tesla's 26,000 cars is a blip is all I was trying to say. The people doing the conversions know what they are doing with cars. The general public doesn't so seeing big companies like Nissan and small companies like Tesla have manufactured cars on the road likely has a bigger impact. It's all about risk tolerance. Most families want to be able to take their car somewhere to get fixed if there are problems. That can be more difficult with a DIY car.

I simply see a ripple effect. When one person is encouraged to get an EV they show it to people at work and family members. We are interconnected more that most people realize.

To be honest I have been rather surprised at how people have completely dismissed and basically insulted the DYI EV movement in this thread. I find this interest in that they would likely not be a Tesla Motors without a few guys tinkering in a garage.....