Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives

[Ulmo]

Hi,

I scheduled to install 2 PW2s in a couple of weeks (no solar). Much to my embarassment, i still don't seem to get pretty basic things. I will appreciate any help with clarification.

(1) Legal:

(1a) Solar City sent me PGE's agreement today with a bunch of previously undisclosed information in it (Generating facility interconnection agreement). They say i have to maintain an isurance, marked it seems up to 200k per instance. They request sending insurance confirmation back to them. What is this? A special kind of insurance, or the home owner's insurance covers it? What's the additional cost of this?

(1b) they say they may bill me for interconnecting. Why? I just install an electric device behind the main panel which is not going to pump anything back. This is just a load shifting and backup device. If there's additional recurring financial burden to be added to this, this will eat up any load shift benefits, which are already barely worth worrying about aside from my purely altruistic motivations behind electrification of the energy industries.

Bottom line, i am not sure what they expect me to do and what an additional cost to me might be. Is this somehow connected to SGIP rebate? SC can't immediately explain it to me (at this point). Although i know this must be standard for any Solar install though, so I am sure somebody here could give me a clue what they expect me to do.

(2) Technical -- load shifting. As i see many people say TOU is still not supported. But the whole premise of my conversation with SC advisers was based on TOU load shifting and they assured me it would be possible. In fact, the SGIP rebate is pre-conditioned on doing that. What exactly is possible and what is not (w.r.t. to simple idea of charging at night, discharging down to backup margin during peak?) Sorry if this was explained before. I tried to read thru the entire thread, but i don't think i found an accessible (to me) explanation ... Thank you for helping a newbie.

I just got this document too, and we are having difficulty with it. Although I understand it, the account holder does not, and doesn't want to take the time to interpret it. I have been assigned the task to summarize it or ask for a summary.

Here is the introduction to the document in email:

The Tesla Team
[email protected]
9/12/2017
(Account Holder Name)
(Address)

Dear (Account Holder First Name),
Congratulations on ordering your Powerwall system and being a part of the energy revolution. Now that your Powerwall design is complete and your agreement is signed, we have filled out the necessary utility/permit applications and state incentives on your behalf.

NEXT STEPS

1. Electronically sign the utility/permit application documents or if you received them in the mail, please sign and return within three days.
2. Once signed, you will be contacted for any next steps.

We look forward to successfully bringing your Powerwall system online. If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to our team by phone at 877.571.XXXX.

Thank you,
The Tesla Energy Team
​

The wording there makes it seem like this is a document that will be ratified before installation in the future, but that this time around, they found that this was new paperwork they were unaware of before. That's part of why they asked me if I was willing to be one of the first 100 installs, so that they can help smooth this process out, to which I said yes, not only because I wanted it sooner, but also because I wanted to help be one of their first customers to clear the pipes out and get them chugging (using an outdated industrial metaphor).

Here is the document they want signed, with personal information redacted (broken into three messages, since it's 21 pages):

 

[Ulmo]

I just got this document too...

Here is the document they want signed, with personal information redacted (broken into three messages, since it's 21 pages):

Pages 11-20:

 

[Ulmo]

Pages 1-20

Page 21 of 21:

 

[miimura]

It is a little strange to me that a "Non-Export Generating Facility" would have additional insurance requirements beyond what a normal incidental exporting facility would. However, if your insurer refuses to provide a Certificate of Additional Insured naming PG&E as an Additional Insured, you can submit that in writing and the requirement will be waived for Residential accounts.

I already have an Umbrella policy higher than the $200k required for <10kW systems, so this is not a big deal to me beyond the hassle of obtaining the Certificate.

 

[Ulmo]

It is a little strange to me that a "Non-Export Generating Facility" would have additional insurance requirements beyond what a normal incidental exporting facility would. However, if your insurer refuses to provide a Certificate of Additional Insured naming PG&E as an Additional Insured, you can submit that in writing and the requirement will be waived for Residential accounts.

I already have an Umbrella policy higher than the $200k required for <10kW systems, so this is not a big deal to me beyond the hassle of obtaining the Certificate.

@miimura, thank you very much for that succinct callout of what you found relevant in the document so far. I'll of course have to actually read the whole thing at some point, but the skimming I did and the summaries you and @dlieu did are a great way to initiate my understanding of the documents and help explain them when the time comes.

The document says it is desired within three days if by paper! I hope they're not expecting within three days on the electronic version, too.

 

[dlieu]

Somebody from SC with claimed specific knowledge about it called me back.

The major points i pulled from them:

(1) This contract does not change ongoing tariffs for me. I get EVA, i will keep it.
(2) Insurance (according to that person) is taken care by SC as a subcontractor. This has nothing to do with my home insurance.
(3) They will submit all requested documentation, i don't need to do a thing but to sign.

If that's true, that's really all i care about.

The person had more trouble responding to load shifting questions. According to, by his own admission, his somewhat vague understanding of the issue, the TOU settings are settable manually by the installation team with the possibility of on-demand override by me (but i don't want to override something at night of course -- so i have to make sure it is done right per my tariff at the time of install). What's not available is the web/smartphone override for those.

@Ulmo, thank you for the primer, i will take time to watch through it.

 

[GenSao]

I am currently on a holding pattern with my install of Two Powerwall 2 units. I can install anytime (allowing for 30-50 days lead time in California). My Tesla rep says I can install prior to getting formal acceptance into SGIP. Would it make sense to install early or wait?

 

[zanary]

I am currently on a holding pattern with my install of Two Powerwall 2 units. I can install anytime (allowing for 30-50 days lead time in California). My Tesla rep says I can install prior to getting formal acceptance into SGIP. Would it make sense to install early or wait?

I was like you, but I decided to do the install at the earliest appointment. I did get an email from PG&E regarding my SGIP submission the day it was submitted.

I also noticed that on the day of the install, I received a copy of the PG&E Internet License document and I needed to sign it and send it back via Docusign, so I'm only guessing that the install of the Powerwall, signing of this PG&E document needs to be completed before PG&E will pay out your SGIP rebate in the form of a check.

 

[bkp_duke]

I am currently on a holding pattern with my install of Two Powerwall 2 units. I can install anytime (allowing for 30-50 days lead time in California). My Tesla rep says I can install prior to getting formal acceptance into SGIP. Would it make sense to install early or wait?

I'm in the same boat. Still trying to find a way to make the numbers make sense, even with Step 3 SGIP.

Although I may just get it for the "toy" factor.

 

[cwied]

I'm in the same boat. Still trying to find a way to make the numbers make sense, even with Step 3 SGIP.

Although I may just get it for the "toy" factor.

I just talked to a Tesla Rep because they are ready to install my Powerwalls. She was evasive about the chances of getting into Step 3. When I pushed her, she said that there are still customers who put their deposit down in March that didn't gotten into Step 2 due to the developer cap. My suspicion is that they will fill their Step 3 developer cap with the existing backlog. She seemed to be hinting that I might miss it given that I didn't put my deposit down until July.

I also was told that I can't apply for SGIP after the system is installed. This seems to be different than what others in this thread have been told.

 

[Kren]

I just talked to a Tesla Rep because they are ready to install my Powerwalls. She was evasive about the chances of getting into Step 3. When I pushed her, she said that there are still customers who put their deposit down in March that didn't gotten into Step 2 due to the developer cap. My suspicion is that they will fill their Step 3 developer cap with the existing backlog. She seemed to be hinting that I might miss it given that I didn't put my deposit down until July.

I also was told that I can't apply for SGIP after the system is installed. This seems to be different than what others in this thread have been told.

Tesla has reached their developer's cap so they can't get your rebate until step 3. Step 3 won't open up until Step 2 has depleted it's funds. But there are millions of dollars still available in Step 2 residential. Tesla was/is the only "reasonably" priced installer when taking in to account the SGIP rebate. The other companies that offer installation and that still have Step 2 rebates available are so expensive it kind of doesn't make sense. I think the consumer demand for solar batteries is slowing down because of this. If the current situation continues as it is, it will be a year or more before step 3 opens up. I agree with you, Tesla must have a ton of people waiting for step 3 to open up but it's going to be a long wait. As far as not being able to apply for the SGIP after install, I would write or call SGIP to verify. I found that Tesla and the SGIP program sometimes have conflicting information. SGIP are the ones handing out the money so I tend to go by what they say.

 

[Az_Rael]

Tesla has reached their developer's cap so they can't get your rebate until step 3. Step 3 won't open up until Step 2 has depleted it's funds. But there are millions of dollars still available in Step 2 residential. Tesla was/is the only "reasonably" priced installer when taking in to account the SGIP rebate. The other companies that offer installation and that still have Step 2 rebates available are so expensive it kind of doesn't make sense. I think the consumer demand for solar batteries is slowing down because of this. If the current situation continues as it is, it will be a year or more before step 3 opens up. I agree with you, Tesla must have a ton of people waiting for step 3 to open up but it's going to be a long wait. As far as not being able to apply for the SGIP after install, I would write or call SGIP to verify. I found that Tesla and the SGIP program sometimes have conflicting information. SGIP are the ones handing out the money so I tend to go by what they say.

So do you think the info on the SGIP website just hasnt caught up to show Tesla fully out of Step 2?

 

[Kren]

So do you think the info on the SGIP website just hasnt caught up to show Tesla fully out of Step 2?

View attachment 250195

Well that I don't know. I am just going by what Tesla told me (and a few others). They are ready to do my install but I told them I need the rebate before they start. They told me that step 2 rebates for them was over and that they would file my rebate when step 3 opens up.

 

[DeJa]

So do you think the info on the SGIP website just hasnt caught up to show Tesla fully out of Step 2?

View attachment 250195

I know you're set on going with TE but just remember that this is their reserved funds. In speaking with some people and finding about Tesla's backlog I seriously question whether you would get any SGIP rebate if you go with Tesla.

Think about it, they have a big backlog of people who are trying to take advantage of the same thing you are. Do you really think they're going to bump your application to the top of the list so that you can get Step 3 (or 4 or 5)? The 20% installer cap has actually screwed over consumers, something which it obviously wasn't meant to do but it's where we're at.

When Tesla themselves tells you that you likely won't get it it's definitely a gamble. Again though, either way good luck! If you go with them I hope you get it! It's definitely annoying that other installers are jacking up the price knowing they get the rebate but at least you can get a guaranteed ROI analysis and see if it makes fiscal sense.

 

[abasile]

The 20% installer cap has actually screwed over consumers, something which it obviously wasn't meant to do but it's where we're at.

Totally agree. If they were going to have an installer cap, it should have been at least 50%, not 20%.

 

[Az_Rael]

When Tesla themselves tells you that you likely won't get it it's definitely a gamble. Again though, either way good luck!

Upon following up with TE prior to committing to them, they stated I would be likely to get the rebate. Here is what the sales rep wrote to me in an email:

"Yes, it is possible to still be approved for the SGIP. This is why it is important to start this as soon as you can. Tesla applies for the SGIP on your behalf and we have the ability to jump the line with your application because we are a company. You do not file individually and our developer limit is not caped. Do know the SGIP is not guaranteed, but is likely to be approved. "

If that was all just sales talk to get me to sign, then I will be a very unhappy customer.

I have sent an email to the SCE program administrator with questions about Tesla and their developer cap, so we will see what I hear back.

Honestly, we might still buy the Powerwalls even if we don't get the SGIP. I still refuse to reward the companies charging $20k for the installs even if it would be cheaper overall. If I am not in SGIP then I don't have to discharge 52 times a year and can use them for backup power as I see fit (although they will still need to be charged from my panels for the ITC credit)

 

[DeJa]

Upon following up with TE prior to committing to them, they stated I would be likely to get the rebate. Here is what the sales rep wrote to me in an email:

"Yes, it is possible to still be approved for the SGIP. This is why it is important to start this as soon as you can. Tesla applies for the SGIP on your behalf and we have the ability to jump the line with your application because we are a company. You do not file individually and our developer limit is not caped. Do know the SGIP is not guaranteed, but is likely to be approved. "

Hmm, interesting. Thanks again for the info.

 

[Kren]

Upon following up with TE prior to committing to them, they stated I would be likely to get the rebate. Here is what the sales rep wrote to me in an email:

"Yes, it is possible to still be approved for the SGIP. This is why it is important to start this as soon as you can. Tesla applies for the SGIP on your behalf and we have the ability to jump the line with your application because we are a company. You do not file individually and our developer limit is not caped. Do know the SGIP is not guaranteed, but is likely to be approved. "

If that was all just sales talk to get me to sign, then I will be a very unhappy customer.

I have sent an email to the SCE program administrator with questions about Tesla and their developer cap, so we will see what I hear back.

Honestly, we might still buy the Powerwalls even if we don't get the SGIP. I still refuse to reward the companies charging $20k for the installs even if it would be cheaper overall. If I am not in SGIP then I don't have to discharge 52 times a year and can use them for backup power as I see fit (although they will still need to be charged from my panels for the ITC credit)

Just to throw this in....there ARE a handful of us working with SGIP to apply for our own rebate. Tesla insists this cannot be done and they will not work with you at all on this. But the guys handing out the rebates, SGiP administrators, have said that we as homeowners CAN apply on our own behalf. That being said, it is a long and tedius process and to my knowledge no homeowner has been approved (or rejected).

 

[Shygar]

Just to throw this in....there ARE a handful of us working with SGIP to apply for our own rebate. Tesla insists this cannot be done and they will not work with you at all on this. But the guys handing out the rebates, SGiP administrators, have said that we as homeowners CAN apply on our own behalf. That being said, it is a long and tedius process and to my knowledge no homeowner has been approved (or rejected).

I started to go down this route because I didn't know that SolarCity/Tesla was going to apply on my behalf until last week. When I went through the application, I needed Developer Key codes for Tesla and some technicals for the battery that I didn't have. I decided to abandon trying to do it and was happy to find out Tesla would be doing this on my behalf. Will wait and see if it goes anywhere. I did not factor it into my decision as the SolarCity rep I worked with initially told me to not count on it so it was not factored into any numbers we went over.

 

[Az_Rael]

Hmm, interesting. Thanks again for the info.

Here is the answer I got back from the SGIP folks about Tesla's developer cap:

Just to throw this in....there ARE a handful of us working with SGIP to apply for our own rebate. Tesla insists this cannot be done and they will not work with you at all on this. But the guys handing out the rebates, SGiP administrators, have said that we as homeowners CAN apply on our own behalf. That being said, it is a long and tedius process and to my knowledge no homeowner has been approved (or rejected).

Here is what they told me about applying myself. Sounds like I would have to qualify as a developer in some crazy manner