P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

[darthy001]

Okay, so a few questions for you: Do you think that's a fair way to price vehicle insurance in your country? Do you believe that having more HP equates to a higher probability of an accident? Is that in fact true from your reality/perspective? What is the next most important factor for your country's insurance companies when it comes to assigning premiums?

Oh noes I dont agree at all They do it because they can

In Norway horsepower has been seen as the "great evil" for many many years. Thus the insurance companies have jumped on the opportunity to add to pricing of cars with high HP-numbers..

The new thing with the Model S is that its the first time a car with a lot of HP is actually obtainable to a much broader spectrum of people. No salestax etc makes it a bargain. Strangely it also makes us blind to HP-numbers I was giddy as a little boy when I heard the car had 700hp

Edit: yes I did see a 130000USD car as a bargain last year.. That is how expensive normal cars are here normally.

 

[vgrinshpun]

More or less all Norwegian companies list all known variants like this. HP is a major contributor to cost in Norway. Its the way the companies differentiate and assign "risk for accidents"..

One more example of the same attached here:

I think (speculation here) that the reason Norwegian insurance companies are so focused on hp might have something to do with the fact that in Norway hp is very significant factor in how vehicles are taxed, and the society as a whole is more tuned to the hp specifications than elsewhere. Another factor bringing the awareness to the hp spec is the fact that in Norway EVs (at least for now) are exempt from the rules which, in effect, assign huge tax premium to hp. As a result, as was mentioned by a Norwegian owner a while ago, the out of pocket cost of Model S is similar to Volkswagen Passat.

 

[darthy001]

I think (speculation here) that the reason Norwegian insurance companies are so focused on hp might have something to do with the fact that in Norway hp is very significant factor in how vehicles are taxed, and the society as a whole is more tuned to the hp specifications than elsewhere. Another factor bringing the awareness to the hp spec is the fact that in Norway EVs (at least for now) are exempt from the rules which, in effect, assign huge tax premium to hp. As a result, as was mentioned by a Norwegian owner a while ago, the out of pocket cost of Model S is similar to Volkswagen Passat.

Correct on HP comments.

But not so correct on the Passat-comparison. A top specced Passat would be comparable in price to a RWD 70S wihtout any options today I believe. You can get a low spec Passat for way less than any Model S these days.

Exchange rates have made those old comparisons invalid. The Model S is becoming quite expensive here now due to the strong dollar and the weak norwegian krone.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Correct on HP comments.

But not so correct on the Passat-comparison. A top specced Passat would be comparable in price to a RWD 70S wihtout any options today I believe. You can get a low spec Passat for way less than any Model S these days.

Exchange rates have made those old comparisons invalid. The Model S is becoming quite expensive here now due to the strong dollar and the weak norwegian krone.

Thanks for the clarification.

BTW, does top specced Passat has diesel engine by any chance?:wink:

 

[darthy001]

Thanks for the clarification.

BTW, does top specced Passat has diesel engine by any chance?:wink:

Hahaha until recently they would have. But even a "top specced" one here in Norway would only have a 2.0liter engine Doesnt matter if its a Diesel or petrol 2.0liter it is....

Checked the prices now:

Passat stationwagon(no one buys a sedan here) starts at 356700NOK.
Tesla Model S RWD 70 starts at 548000NOK.

 

[idaten]

P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media. I’ve been surprised how long it has taken.

Owners Question Tesla P85D Power Output | News, Letter | Digital Trends

Tesla Model S owners claim P85D hp rating is exaggerated | LeftLaneNews

Looked at the Yahoo article by Zach Doell just now. Here's a guy that writes articles about cars presumably as his livelihood, and he stunningly seems not to understand the issue. Thinks that Tesla is still adding the numbers. Thinks that dyno-testing gets 550HP.
Why do so few people understand that the electrical power delivered is never more than 550HP (and that there's no storage mechanism farther along the way).

Zach does make a point that EV HP varies with temperature and state of charge. So do ICE, albeit not as dramatically, vary with temp/air density, humidity, and gas formulation. But being right in one area doesn't make the rest of the article correct.

I believe a bit more each day that TMC is disingenuous (lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness: calculating). It isn't wise to be on legal outcomes, but I certainly wouldn't want to be testifying on their behalf.
I don't know what I'd do other than try to be more honest. Its hopefully what we teach our children to do.

And, yes, I do love my P85D, but truly that is irrelevant to the ethics of the company.

 

[Krugerrand]

So, we're talking about some cultural differences that can/do affect how each perceives the seriousness/non-seriousness of the issue (and other issues) at hand. If we keep that in mind it might help discussions. For instance, Tesla is an American car company, doing things (naturally) the way it's done in America (1' rollout, anyone?). Sure, they'll try and cater somewhat to other markets (new backseats for Model S for Asian market) but they'll always be American first in thought and action, and they'll be prone to making rookie mistakes in non-American markets and may even at times not care to cater specifically to a non-American culture because Tesla (and Elon) have their own thoughts and ways of doing things. The reverse would/could be true for a European company doing business in America.

Norway has been an awesome market for Tesla for some obvious reasons. Thank you, Norway! It might, however, be time for Norway insurance companies to reconsider how they rate premiums on EVs, but then I think change is coming for the entire world and eventually everyone else will catch up.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

I would love to pay insurance premiums (and sales tax) based on the displacement of my S85's motor!
Not complaining about my premium for the S85 being lower than the Blazer she replaced, though...

 

[vgrinshpun]

So, we're talking about some cultural differences that can/do affect how each perceives the seriousness/non-seriousness of the issue (and other issues) at hand. If we keep that in mind it might help discussions. For instance, Tesla is an American car company, doing things (naturally) the way it's done in America (1' rollout, anyone?). Sure, they'll try and cater somewhat to other markets (new backseats for Model S for Asian market) but they'll always be American first in thought and action, and they'll be prone to making rookie mistakes in non-American markets and may even at times not care to cater specifically to a non-American culture because Tesla (and Elon) have their own thoughts and ways of doing things. The reverse would/could be true for a European company doing business in America.

Norway has been an awesome market for Tesla for some obvious reasons. Thank you, Norway! It might, however, be time for Norway insurance companies to reconsider how they rate premiums on EVs, but then I think change is coming for the entire world and eventually everyone else will catch up.

It *is* true. Audi, for example, advertises their 0 to 60 acceleration in US the same way as they do in Germany - without the rollout.

Regarding the rollout issue, back in nineties there were three car magazines that tested McLaren F1, the car 0 to 60 mph acceleration of which Elon mentioned the P85D match during the "D" event.

The British magazine Autocar tested F1 at 3.2s, presumably without a rollout (equivalent to 2.9s with rollout). However, in tests by two american magazines, both with rollout, F1 was significantly slower. In August 1994 issue Car and Driver reported test time of 3.2s with rollout. In November 2012 article Road and Track reported that according to their 1997 test McLarn hit 3.4s with rollout.

So in three documented tests F1 0 to 60mph acceleration time was 2.9s, 3.2s, 3.4s (all with rollout or adjusted to be equivalent to a test with rollout). The bottom line is that Tesla claim that P85D, with 3.2s 0 to 60mph time matches performance of McLaren F1 is completely legitimate.

It is also obvious that Tesla switched to stating acceleration time with rollout for P85D because they chose "acceleration of family sedan equal to the acceleration of McLaren F1" as the major theme of their marketing, and the data from two US magazines quoted F1 acceleration with rollout. They chose the lowest number of the two as the basis for their marketing.

 

[darthy001]

@vgrinsphun and had Tesla explained that I would have no beef about the 0-100kph claims... But they did not, and they still havent on the Norwegian site.. Info about roll-out only on US-site it seems

 

[Andyw2100]

@vgrinsphun and had Tesla explained that I would have no beef about the 0-100kph claims... But they did not, and they still havent on the Norwegian site.. Info about roll-out only on US-site it seems

Tesla wouldn't have had to explain nearly that much for me to not have even the tiniest of an issue with the whole 1 foot roll out thing. All they would have had to do was include an asterisk or a note that said, "includes 1 foot roll out" and this would have been a complete and total non-issue.

 

[vgrinshpun]

@vgrinsphun and had Tesla explained that I would have no beef about the 0-100kph claims... But they did not, and they still havent on the Norwegian site.. Info about roll-out only on US-site it seems

My point is that there are different sorts of issues out there...

I would not argue, and, in fact, would agree with a lot of criticism of how Tesla handled some of the communications with regards to hp and acceleration metrics.

What I do not get is the amount of vitriol spilled in their face over this, claims that they schemed to defraud the customers who were manipulated into buying more expensive variants of the car and who "did not get what they paid for". The amazing thing is that these claims persist even after it became abundantly clear that they have no basis.

I wish people realize that reality is formed by the *combined* actions of everybody involved and act accordingly. I do not claim that Tesla communications on the subject were perfect, and I wish that we were not in the situation we are in, but in my view they are not the only ones who are responsible for where we are today.

 

[kennybobby]

Sometimes it's good to just let people vent and get it out of their system, instead of trying to cram it back down their throat that they are wrong and have no reason to feel the way they do.

There is really no need for most of attempts to defend TM so fiercely everytime someone lets off some steam. Just let it go and get on with your life...

 

[eloder]

Sometimes it's good to just let people vent and get it out of their system, instead of trying to cram it back down their throat that they are wrong and have no reason to feel the way they do.

There is really no need for most of attempts to defend TM so fiercely everytime someone lets off some steam. Just let it go and get on with your life...

I think a big reason behind at least a few people here (I know for certain, myself) that a lot of the "controversy" is contributing to incorrect FUD about EV technology in general. If my debates help educate at least one person on why Tesla and other EV makers have legitimate reasons for calculating HP the way they do, it will hopefully help future buyers make informed decisions and also know what to look for for future EVs.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sometimes it's good to just let people vent and get it out of their system, instead of trying to cram it back down their throat that they are wrong and have no reason to feel the way they do.

There is really no need for most of attempts to defend TM so fiercely everytime someone lets off some steam. Just let it go and get on with your life...

That's a good point, but then a lot of times the urge is extremely strong. You basically have this happening:

 

[AWDtsla]

What I do not get is the amount of vitriol spilled in their face over this, claims that they schemed to defraud the customers who were manipulated into buying more expensive variants of the car and who "did not get what they paid for". The amazing thing is that these claims persist even after it became abundantly clear that they have no basis.

It makes this site much less enjoyable to read. That's the kind of crap I expect to see on all the other boards. IMHO the posts should be deleted.

 

[Luclyluciano]

Let me be clear: I'm not yelling that people are crybabies. In fact, I have deep empathy for I Didnt Get What I Paid For. Which is why I've tried pretty hard to get beside that argument and see what it means. And that's where I get disconnected. Horsepower is not performance, and the car performs as advertised. So I am having a hard time wrapping my head around Legal Action and the kind of discomfort that's being shown here when I can't fathom how there's actually been a deception.

Horsepower IS a performance measurement rating of work done.

It IS most apparent at speed.

The PD does not perform as well as other vehicles with ~700 because is DOES NOT produce 691HP.
The motors are ONLY capable of the 691 HP rating with the necessary equipment which the the PD does NOT have.

I and many others PAID for the 691 HP as one of our buying decisions. We are disappointed with the performance at speed which is a result of the lack of advertised HP rating.

The 0 to 60 performance rating is not actually from ZERO, and Yes some, but not all American ratings use the 1 foot roll out but it is not from ZERO and should be a disclaimer.

Just curious....If you paid for the upgraded leather interior and did not get it would you not be upset? Would it be fair for me to say it is synthetic leather and you should not complain because it feels like leather to ME!? The 691 HP rating is just that...synthetic....it is not real....it does not exist on the P85D and I was sold on the fact that it does.

There are actual threads by Tesla owners that state the P85D is not worth the extra money because its performance is lacking over the standard S85D after 30 MPH. This is because HP is a performance rating that matters at speed. The P85D does not produce the represented HP.

To hang your hat and say its all OK because the dual motors hypothetically could produce 691 HP just NOT EVER with the current P85D is very lame and no different than any Auto maker advertising their ICE hypothetically was capable of 1000 HP just not with the the configuration which you bought (sucker.) You should have read between the lines. We never meant YOUR car would produce 1000 HP. Thanks for your money sucker. See how that works.


The P85D does not perform as advertised otherwise there would not be a problem.
So stop the misinformation.

Yes, i still like car for all the other positives it has. But I was sold on it producing 691 HP by websites and salespeople and it does not.

I wonder if the sales people are still hyping the artificial HP figures to unsuspecting buyers.

 

[brianman]

IMHO the posts should be deleted.

IMO you should never be a mod on TMC.

 

[Andyw2100]

IMHO the posts should be deleted.

IMO you should never be a mod on TMC.

I am both amused and pleased at the fact that brianman left out the "H"!

 

[brianman]

I am both amused and pleased at the fact that brianman left out the "H"!

Heh, didn't really put much thought into it. I never use IMHO, just IMO. Brevity, etc.