Not Allowed to charge at RV campground at 50 A?

[Unclepaul]

Many campsites have older electrical systems that have been patched many times over the years.

EV plug ins can easily overwhelm their capacity, reducing voltage or tripping breakers.

Each campground wants to be as welcoming as possible to increase business, however they often cannot accomocate multiple EVs tapping in.

Many campsites offer different sites with either 30 amp or 50 amp service. It is usually the rigs with more than one AC that will seak out the 50 amp service.

They know that EVs want to charge during their stay, but don't want their systems stressed.

Some are installing separate EV charging spots that are either free or pay for use. Allows you to charge while in camp, but at a special spot.

If you are camping at a site that prohibits EV charging, don't be "that guy" that clicks off the circuit to your entire loop.

 

[cpa]

I have availed myself of charging at four RV parks over the years while I paid for a site. I made it clear what I was doing, and the owners did not have any problem. I was certain to dial the amperage down to 28A in the car while I charged overnight. That is still 6.7 kW--good enough for 50+kWh for a eight-hour session while I slept.

I am no electrician or engineer. I would not think that a 28A current for 8 hours would be deleterious to their set ups, since each site has its own dedicated breaker. And the car won't charge or won't accept a strong current if it detects issues with the feed.

 

[brkaus]

I’m sure this will continue to evolve as time progresses

 

[doghousePVD]

Just got back from six weeks on the road with my trailer, ME to FL roundtrip. Charged every night at RV parks (11 total, including one KOA) without any issues.

So far, the ONLY campground with an issue was the one I mentioned in the first post of this thread. I've charged at over 70 RV parks since 2020. I have never seen another EV towing a trailer at any campsite. We are a rare beast,

Like most RVers, I rarely stay only a single night. The $20 "fill-up" is really being distributed over several days to several weeks of site rental.

 

[Evee]

“I’m renting a camping spot”

 

[ATPMSD]

Technically, you cannot charge at RV sites because the TT-30 and NEMA 14-50 outlets are NOT GFCI protected.

Back when the code was revised they added a GFCI requirement for all outdoor outlets - the RV community freaked! An exception was made for RV sites based on the argument that power supplied to an RV goes to an internal panel and, therefore, the connection is considered to be a “feeder” circuit, which does not require a GFCI breaker. Plugging in your EV mandates the GFCI requirement.

So don’t make a big fuss when they say no as we really don’t want every RV site to enforce the rule.

 

[DCGOO]

Technically, you cannot charge at RV sites because the TT-30 and NEMA 14-50 outlets are NOT GFCI protected.

Back when the code was revised they added a GFCI requirement for all outdoor outlets - the RV community freaked! An exception was made for RV sites based on the argument that power supplied to an RV goes to an internal panel and, therefore, the connection is considered to be a “feeder” circuit, which does not require a GFCI breaker. Plugging in your EV mandates the GFIC requirement.

So don’t make a big fuss when they say no as we really don’t want every RV site to enforce the rule.

I have never once seen a 14-50 outlet with GFCI. Typically the standard 5-20 is, but not the big ones. The problem is typically all three outlets in the pedestal are usually fed with a single 50 amp circuit. So if your trailer is plugged in to the TT-30, you cannot use the 14-50 for your car at the same time. If you turn the car way down (most campground owners do not know we have that ability), you might get away with it. But usually only one connection at a time is allowed.

 

[ATPMSD]

I have never once seen a 14-50 outlet with GFCI.

GFCI protected, not outlet. This is done by a GFCI breaker.

 

[doghousePVD]

Technically, you cannot charge at RV sites because the TT-30 and NEMA 14-50 outlets are NOT GFCI protected.

Back when the code was revised they added a GFCI requirement for all outdoor outlets - the RV community freaked! An exception was made for RV sites based on the argument that power supplied to an RV goes to an internal panel and, therefore, the connection is considered to be a “feeder” circuit, which does not require a GFCI breaker. Plugging in your EV mandates the GFCI requirement.

So don’t make a big fuss when they say no as we really don’t want every RV site to enforce the rule.

It is not illegal to USE a non-GFI outlet. NEW installations are required to have GFI, old ones are grandfathered. In any case Tesla charging cords include GFI protection.

 

[ATPMSD]

It is not illegal to USE a non-GFI outlet. NEW installations are required to have GFI, old ones are grandfathered. In any case Tesla charging cords include GFI protection.

Tesla charging connectors (not cords) include internal GFCI protection, this protects the car. A GFCI protected outlet is still required for all outlets, these are not needed for hardwired connections. Yes old outlets are grandfathered, but…

“Initially, the NEC required that all 150-volts (or less) rated receptacles, 100-amps or less installed in RV sites and pedestals, be GFCI protected.

However, a 2020 update to the code excludes the 30-amp and 50-amp circuits of RV pedestals from the need to be GFCI protected.”

The grandfather clause does not apply to RV parks.

 

[Rocky_H]

Technically, you cannot charge at RV sites because the TT-30 and NEMA 14-50 outlets are NOT GFCI protected.

Back when the code was revised they added a GFCI requirement for all outdoor outlets - the RV community freaked! An exception was made for RV sites based on the argument that power supplied to an RV goes to an internal panel and, therefore, the connection is considered to be a “feeder” circuit, which does not require a GFCI breaker. Plugging in your EV mandates the GFCI requirement.

So don’t make a big fuss when they say no as we really don’t want every RV site to enforce the rule.

No, none of this is true. You are applying something to something else where it doesn't apply.

You are talking about NEC code for building and installation. They outlets just have to comply with that code when the property owner is getting them installed. It does not ever apply to you as a customer or user of that outlet.

So code just says that any outlets being installed for the PURPOSE of EV charging must have GFCI breakers. The RV park owners were not intending them for EV charging, so installing them without the GFCI breakers was correct. What you choose to plug into it isn't relevant and doesn't have to comply with that rule.

 

[doghousePVD]

I have never once seen a 14-50 outlet with GFCI. Typically the standard 5-20 is, but not the big ones. The problem is typically all three outlets in the pedestal are usually fed with a single 50 amp circuit. So if your trailer is plugged in to the TT-30, you cannot use the 14-50 for your car at the same time. If you turn the car way down (most campground owners do not know we have that ability), you might get away with it. But usually only one connection at a time is allowed.

I often use the 50 A and the 30 A simultaneously. A few times I have used all three outlets. I once used a site that said only a single connection was permitted, and I complied. I also have been at a site with only a 50 A receptacle, so I used a Y for the car and trailer.

The sub-panel (also known as the pedestal) is usually not fed by a single 50 A breaker in a distribution panel. More common would be a 200 A breaker serving 6 pedestals.

 

[P90D]

Of course we also cannot forget that $10 worth of free charging on a $20 campsite is a significant hit to their business model.

I don't begrudge anyone a fair profit for good business and a premium where merited.

I'd be fine with camp site operator upgrading just a handful of sites with a separate 60A circuit, maybe even meter the outlet, tag them as EV sites and if the visitor indicates they're going have an EV, they pay the premium, maybe a flat rate of 80 kWh at $0.50 cents.

The cost of the upgrades would be paid for in a year or two then start installing dedicated 48A connectors offering metered 12kW charging.

If they're thinking about the changing market, they'd put in some CCS at 250kW with public access right next to whatever retail operations they provide (restaurant, market, tourist attractions.) They'd make their sites preferred destinations for EV tourists.

 

[ATPMSD]

No, none of this is true. You are applying something to something else where it doesn't apply.

Pretty sure I got you on this one @Rocky_H, let me know:

551.71(F) GFCI Protection for Receptacles (Recreational Vehicle Parks)

“All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles at RV parks are required to have listed ground-fault circuit-interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel. 30- and 50-ampere receptacles used in RV park supply equipment shall not be required to meet the requirements of 210.8(B).

“The 30- or 50-ampere power cord for an RV is considered a feeder, not a branch circuit. GFCI protection is not appropriate on a feeder circuit in these situations. The internal wiring in an RV provides the necessary GFCI protection for branch circuits that are integral to the RV.”

If you plug an EV in then it is no longer considered a feeder circuit and the GFCI rule applies. This is one reason parks do not allow EV charging.

 

[ATPMSD]

So code just says that any outlets being installed for the PURPOSE of EV charging must have GFCI breakers.

BTW, this section of the code is now moot. 210.8(a) now requires GFCI for 125-250 volt outlets in garages and outside, among other locations.

 

[mswlogo]

It makes perfect sense to me. RV’s plug in and probably use 20-30% of capacity off and on. Where EV is 80% for solid 8 hours. If enough folks did that they would trip main panel. Those camps are set up based on typical loads. Not EV charging which is completely different. They have to be consistent on their rules. So I don’t blame them a bit. And charging extra for it. Some camps might tolerate it for now or not charge extra. But can’t blame the ones that say no or have special locations and fees.

 

[Rocky_H]

@ATPMSD The responsibility of complying with building codes is simply not on the consumers.

 

[ATPMSD]

@ATPMSD The responsibility of complying with building codes is simply not on the consumers.

Technically you are of course correct. But if the house burns down and insurance company refuses to pay, good luck collecting from the electrician, especially if you knew there was a code violation.

In the case of the EV community we know there are far too many cases of electricians installing #6 Romex as a 60-amp circuit for charging at 48-amps. Just one example. Unfortunately many EV consumers know more than the electricians they hire. Shameful, of course.

 

[Rocky_H]

Technically you are of course correct. But if the house burns down and insurance company refuses to pay, good luck collecting from the electrician, especially if you knew there was a code violation.

Why did you change this from RV parks to a house?

 

[ATPMSD]

Why did you change this from RV parks to a house?

Sorry, thought you were going there since you said “building” codes, so never mind. It has been a long week for me already!