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Nonsense from John Petersen

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The fact is Tesla Model S orders helped to bring Panasonic battery division back to profitability. With signing even bigger contract, sure thing Tesla are getting discount from current price level.

So whole point of JP article, that now Panasonic is selling cells at loss and will start to make money on next contract is plain wrong.

EDIT: opps, grammar, spelling... ESL here.
 
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The fact is Tesla Model S orders helped to bring Panasonic battery division back to profitability. With signing even bigger contract, sure thing Tesla are getting discount from current price level.

So whole point of JP article, that now Panasonic is selling cells at loss and will start to make money on next contract is plain wrong.

EDIT: opps, grammar, spelling... ESL here.

:D Not an uncommon error.
 
If we deleted this thread, more people would actually have to click on his (and others') links to get a laugh, and I don't want to pay them for that privilege. So I think we should keep it but maybe add "... and his Seeking Alpha friends" to the title.
 
I like this thread, but I don't click on his articles anymore because of this reason. For every 12 clicks he gets, he's able to buy another share of AXPW...
Since October 15th, AXPW is up 12% while TSLA is down 8%. Clearly Petersen is right!

(Why did I choose 10/15/13 as the reference date? same reason climate skeptics choose 2005 as the reference date: it's one of the only dates that support the hypothesis).
 
whoa, somebody take a picture:

"These very are impressive results. While I was skeptical about management's claim that Tesla would approach a 25% gross margin in Q4, excluding ZEV credits but including other regulatory credits, I've become a believer, at least over the short term."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1817952-teslas-painful-journey-into-the-valley-of-death?source=yahoo

- - - Updated - - -

oh, there's our guy:

"While I'm impressed with Tesla's manufacturing accomplishments and its balance sheet, I continue to believe its reported non-GAAP earnings are a fairy tale;"
 
whoa, somebody take a picture:

"These very are impressive results. While I was skeptical about management's claim that Tesla would approach a 25% gross margin in Q4, excluding ZEV credits but including other regulatory credits, I've become a believer, at least over the short term."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1817952-teslas-painful-journey-into-the-valley-of-death?source=yahoo

- - - Updated - - -

oh, there's our guy:

"While I'm impressed with Tesla's manufacturing accomplishments and its balance sheet, I continue to believe its reported non-GAAP earnings are a fairy tale;"

That was actually the least awful JP article I think I've ever read.
 
The factual part of the most recent article is actually pretty good; the speculative part is terrible. Despite updating his statements to meet the new facts, John Petersen is still missing two key points:
(1) Gen3 is probably going to be late and will probably use something other than lithium-ion batteries...
(2) But so what? The *worldwide* market for Model S / Model X / Roadster 2 is sufficient to justify a pretty pricey stock without figuring in the speculative Gen3. He's still grossly undervaluing where the stock will "bottom out" at. My own pricing model is based on the assumption that Gen3 never gets out the door, and I can't see any way in hell the stock goes as cheap as $25 again. We now know how large the luxury electric car market is and it's *big*.
 

It's not saying much, but this is probably Petersen's best anti-Tesla article ever.

The part that's not unreasonable is that Tesla's stock price was inflated on very high expectations, and as people realize those expectations are either not going to happen, or not happen soon enough or not happen the way they expected, that Tesla's stock price will dive. And, of course, he's using the current price behavior to back up his argument. He's using future battery shortages as the reason why Tesla can't make something like 500K Gen-3's a year.

So, the question is: was Tesla's stock priced too high? Remember, Elon himself said that the market was given Tesla credit for future performance they hadn't yet earned. We here mostly agree that Tesla will continue to dominate the EV world, and disrupt the ICE automotive world. But, if there's a safety recall because of battery fires, and if Tesla can't show that it can get the tens of billions of 18650s it need each year to produce Gen-3 in enough volume to matter, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect Tesla stock to hit double digits again.

Consider that argument as if it didn't come from Petersen. I'm still holding fast, and even bought more recently, but I'm also willing to ride out the "trough of disillusionment." Many other investors won't be.
 
It's not saying much, but this is probably Petersen's best anti-Tesla article ever.

The part that's not unreasonable is that Tesla's stock price was inflated on very high expectations, and as people realize those expectations are either not going to happen, or not happen soon enough or not happen the way they expected, that Tesla's stock price will dive. And, of course, he's using the current price behavior to back up his argument. He's using future battery shortages as the reason why Tesla can't make something like 500K Gen-3's a year.

So, the question is: was Tesla's stock priced too high? Remember, Elon himself said that the market was given Tesla credit for future performance they hadn't yet earned. We here mostly agree that Tesla will continue to dominate the EV world, and disrupt the ICE automotive world. But, if there's a safety recall because of battery fires, and if Tesla can't show that it can get the tens of billions of 18650s it need each year to produce Gen-3 in enough volume to matter, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect Tesla stock to hit double digits again.

Consider that argument as if it didn't come from Petersen. I'm still holding fast, and even bought more recently, but I'm also willing to ride out the "trough of disillusionment." Many other investors won't be.

But the supply issue is bogus. There is no supply issue other than delay in building manufacturing lines. We know that the cost no more than $4.50/cell/year (and likely to diminish) so unless you consider 18650 ephemeral that's $32k for the caabality of building 1 pack per year. 3,200 for 10 years, 1,600 for 20 years. For gen 3 expect density increase and fewer cells.
 
So, the question is: was Tesla's stock priced too high? Remember, Elon himself said that the market was given Tesla credit for future performance they hadn't yet earned. We here mostly agree that Tesla will continue to dominate the EV world, and disrupt the ICE automotive world.

Clearly the stock had moved far ahead of itself in time. Nobody in the company, outside the company or on this board ever came close to predicting a $190 share price by Sept, 2013. And yet Tesla has performed about on schedule of guidance in terms of cars produced, profitability, etc.
So it really isn't credible to take the position the stock isn't over priced at those levels. No given the accomplishments and forward movement from here, coupled with the now $135 price, that's a different story in my mind. And the fact that JP is now back on the 'Valley of Death' board of appeals (he was recently actually bullish on the stock a short time ago) is the biggest sign we may be entering a new support level that now casts some realities into the mix. I'm in the camp suggested by smog's post here - the fires will be addressed (long term they are a just a marketing issue - for heaven sake the nearest competitors use gasoline and hydrogen!); and we have a CEO who is taking on the battery issue head-on and full tilt.

It's interesting that the battery issue narrative finally fits with the basic claim JP has made from the beginning (albeit from multiple poorly thought angles - he made an early claim Li supplies would not hold up- then retracted that along the way for example)- namely battery technology/production can't meet a demand curve sufficient to convert the market from ICE to EV (or even enough of it for a startup to survive, much less flourish). We're about to enter the final phase of that argument over the next 2 years or so as Elon tackles the last remaining mega-hurdle with the mega-factory.

My research indicates the pending convergence of technology, mineral production (yes including Cobalt), manufacturing efficiency, design, finance and meta drivers (like people dying from pollution and global warming) -
mixing a historicaly-transformational stew-pot that only lacks one eye-of-newt catalyst ingredient -
the relentless skills of a determined visionary, who doesn't know how to think small.
By all means, double the current world production of Li-Ion batteries- we've doubled it several times for Apple Laptops-iPods-iPhones-iPads, is it not time to do it again for the humanity's current biggest problem?
My guess is Elon is probably thinking something like, 'what is it you people are afraid of?' (given SpaceX and Mars; is a mega-factory really something more than a requirement on a check-list?)

No, From my seat of facts here, I'll be long TSLA vision and Elon's ability to achieve it, if for nothing more than to include it in my ride through Life
 
If Petersen starts writing reasonable articles about Tesla what does that say? The end is near? I agree that was his most rational piece to date, and I agree that potential delays in capacity build out could cause short term problems for Tesla. Financing for the capacity build out is also a question. Will it be a joint venture, what would that partnership look like, will a separate company be created? Could one of Tesla's existing partners, Daimler or Toyota, be involved?

(he was recently actually bullish on the stock a short time ago)

Eh? I must have missed that moment, all I've heard from him is doom and gloom and "overvalued". I think his "buy" target was $5.
 
If Petersen starts writing reasonable articles about Tesla what does that say? The end is near? I agree that was his most rational piece to date, and I agree that potential delays in capacity build out could cause short term problems for Tesla. Financing for the capacity build out is also a question. Will it be a joint venture, what would that partnership look like, will a separate company be created? Could one of Tesla's existing partners, Daimler or Toyota, be involved?



Eh? I must have missed that moment, all I've heard from him is doom and gloom and "overvalued". I think his "buy" target was $5.
Prediction: John Peterson to be breakout session speaker on why to invest LONG TSLA at Teslive 2014.
 
If Petersen starts writing reasonable articles about Tesla what does that say? The end is near? I agree that was his most rational piece to date, and I agree that potential delays in capacity build out could cause short term problems for Tesla. Financing for the capacity build out is also a question. Will it be a joint venture, what would that partnership look like, will a separate company be created? Could one of Tesla's existing partners, Daimler or Toyota, be involved?



Eh? I must have missed that moment, all I've heard from him is doom and gloom and "overvalued". I think his "buy" target was $5.

yeah- he actually thought the stock price would be going higher for a short while (albeit he didn't think it deserved it)
 
...Eh? I must have missed that moment, all I've heard from him is doom and gloom and "overvalued". I think his "buy" target was $5.
That was the last quote I heard from him as well. It's interesting that he's now admitting it's worth 5x that!

@kenliles, yes I can see that Elon spoke about the mega factory with clear confidence that they could do it, and do it in time for Gen III. The problem is that if Tesla has to build the factory because everyone else is too scared to do it, what will that do to their stock price? I can't see them raising enough cash to finance the factory without considerable dilution. They also have to raise a lot of cash to build out the factory for Gen III.

Where JP is still quite wrong in this article is the nonsense about how EVs are less efficient and more polluting. That's now his fundamental argument for why Tesla will ultimately fail. He will die before you ever change his mind on that.
 
@kenliles, yes I can see that Elon spoke about the mega factory with clear confidence that they could do it, and do it in time for Gen III. The problem is that if Tesla has to build the factory because everyone else is too scared to do it, what will that do to their stock price? I can't see them raising enough cash to finance the factory without considerable dilution. They also have to raise a lot of cash to build out the factory for Gen III

Yes, very valid points hc. And I would agree it will have a suppressing effect on the stock for a good long while. And appropriately so IMO. What I'm going to enjoy is the day they accomplish this making the advantages apparent to the market. These would include not only the vertical integration advantage but the competitive advantage to other manufacturers yielding higher P/E justification. And I didn't even think of the green battery production advantage the JRP3 just noted. I didn't think of that one, excellent thought

I'm looking forward to a more moderate but sustained stock performance due to this effect... Who knows maybe that what Elon had in mind. Good thoughts. Thanks guys