green1
Active Member
Could you link to something showing this? it seems odd that the one specific outlet would be rated at 64% continuous while all others are rated at 80%.
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SmartElectric
Active Member
Tesla Charging | Tesla Motors Canada
My June 2015 UMC + adaptor bundle came with a 32A adaptor for 14-50R.
Some research on this forum found multiple owners that confirmed the Canadian 14-50 adaptor causes the UMC to report 32A maximum current draw.
So I personally contacted Tesla to fix their Canadian site to reference 32A for 14-50R charging on UMC.
Which they did. There still remain some 40A references in images, but the text on the site says 32A.
It has also been confirmed that new UMC's can charge at 40A using older adaptors.
Personally, I will live with my 32A limitations and look into charging at higher speeds if that ever becomes necessary. Right now, we don't see this as a limitation for how we travel/drive/recharge.
green1
Active Member
That confirms that they have changed it to 32A, but I still haven't seen anything to state that it is in fact Canadian regulations forcing that rather than Tesla deciding they wanted to.
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
I don't know what the new CEC (2015) says - but it doesn't go into effect anywhere in Canada until at least January 2016 - then each Province will bring it into effect as they wish. Ontario has said it will enforce the new code as of about May.
The Current code (2012) under section 86-302 states that the load shall be considered continuous (see 8-104 which calls for 80% of rating of breaker). 86-306 1(b) references diagrams 1 and 2 for receptacles over 125V and 20A. Diagram one lists 14-50R as 50 Amp 125/250V. Therefore 40 amp is okay.
I'll try to get my hands on a new copy of the code - or I'll call an ESA inspector. I supect Tesla is trying to be proactive towards the new code
djp
Model 3 Performance
I think the problem is that it's acceptable under Code to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet on a 40A breaker. Tesla doesn't know the breaker size, so they're defaulting to the smaller breaker.
green1
Active Member
Honestly, at home I don't really care, I'm not likely to need more than 32 amps anyway, and if I find that I do, I might as well get a HPWC and go up to 80 because I have the dual chargers.
What bothers me is that the SC network in Canada is pathetic, and I go to a lot of places where I'm going to have to find electrons, I don't want to limit my charging to any slower than I absolutely have to if I'm on a road trip. (and yes I know there are lots of Sun Country Highway chargers and similar, but there's also a lot of nothing out there)
What bothers me is that the SC network in Canada is pathetic, and I go to a lot of places where I'm going to have to find electrons, I don't want to limit my charging to any slower than I absolutely have to if I'm on a road trip. (and yes I know there are lots of Sun Country Highway chargers and similar, but there's also a lot of nothing out there)
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
Electrical Safety Authority (ESA - Ontario)
I have sent an email to an ESA inspector, and asked him for an opinion on the 14-50 at 32 amps. Will post his reply upon its' return.....
Initial reply from my contact:
"Currently though, a 50 amp receptacle connected to minimum #8awg and 50 amp breaker can supply a continuous load of 40amps. No change here. We have our 80% loading rules for most circuits."
"My guess would be to have a look at the CSA 22.2 standards to see if any changes in manufacturers requirements.
Recently C22.2 NO. 281.2 was updated to harmonize with US and Mexico. I do not have a copy.
I will check with my Technical Advisors and get back to you."
I will keep everyone up to date as we get responses.....
I have sent an email to an ESA inspector, and asked him for an opinion on the 14-50 at 32 amps. Will post his reply upon its' return.....
Initial reply from my contact:
"Currently though, a 50 amp receptacle connected to minimum #8awg and 50 amp breaker can supply a continuous load of 40amps. No change here. We have our 80% loading rules for most circuits."
"My guess would be to have a look at the CSA 22.2 standards to see if any changes in manufacturers requirements.
Recently C22.2 NO. 281.2 was updated to harmonize with US and Mexico. I do not have a copy.
I will check with my Technical Advisors and get back to you."
I will keep everyone up to date as we get responses.....
Last edited:
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
Okay folks, Here is the response from ESA regarding the installation of a NEMA 14-50 Receptacle.
Reading some of the Tesla forums, I see a common mistake: #8 awg is only good for 40 amps. This is NOT true today.
In 2012 we harmonized the ampacity tables with NEC and now it is good for 50 amps with a 75 degree termination temperature. (See table 2 below)
Previous code cycles had it rated for 45 amps.
Interesting history, 1982 and previous has #8 rated for 50 amps then it got lowered to 45. Code makers still allowed #8 awg to provide power to 14-50 receptacle, even though this is actually a violation. Eg; You cannot feed a 20 amp receptacle with 14 awg and 15 amps of overcurrent, and you cannot feed a 14-30 outlet with #12 awg wire and 20 amp overcurrent. For awhile (‘70’s) they actually allowed 40 amp O-C on a #10 awg for dryers! (Bending our own rules??)
In 2012 OESC they added an Ontario only amendment to 26-744 to fix the oversight:
Where a free-standing electric range, having a calculated demand of 50 A or less, is intended to be installed in a dwelling unit, a receptacle of CSA Configuration 14-50R, as shown in Diagram 1, shall be installed for the supply of electric energy to the appliance.
(5) ∆ The receptacle required by Subrule (4) shall be permitted to be connected to a branch circuit rated at not less than 40 A.
AFAIC: Today, a 14-50R receptacle that is NOT for a range, MUST be connected to a 50 amp overcurrent device. Wire can be #8 copper or #6 Al Alloy, or larger for voltage drop.
AFAIC: Today, a 14-50R receptacle that is NOT for a range, MUST be connected to a 50 amp overcurrent device. Wire can be #8 copper or #6 Al Alloy, or larger for voltage drop.
So I do not see why Tesla is "choking" the 14-50 adapter to 32 amps.......
Reading some of the Tesla forums, I see a common mistake: #8 awg is only good for 40 amps. This is NOT true today.
In 2012 we harmonized the ampacity tables with NEC and now it is good for 50 amps with a 75 degree termination temperature. (See table 2 below)
Previous code cycles had it rated for 45 amps.
Interesting history, 1982 and previous has #8 rated for 50 amps then it got lowered to 45. Code makers still allowed #8 awg to provide power to 14-50 receptacle, even though this is actually a violation. Eg; You cannot feed a 20 amp receptacle with 14 awg and 15 amps of overcurrent, and you cannot feed a 14-30 outlet with #12 awg wire and 20 amp overcurrent. For awhile (‘70’s) they actually allowed 40 amp O-C on a #10 awg for dryers! (Bending our own rules??)
In 2012 OESC they added an Ontario only amendment to 26-744 to fix the oversight:
Where a free-standing electric range, having a calculated demand of 50 A or less, is intended to be installed in a dwelling unit, a receptacle of CSA Configuration 14-50R, as shown in Diagram 1, shall be installed for the supply of electric energy to the appliance.
(5) ∆ The receptacle required by Subrule (4) shall be permitted to be connected to a branch circuit rated at not less than 40 A.
AFAIC: Today, a 14-50R receptacle that is NOT for a range, MUST be connected to a 50 amp overcurrent device. Wire can be #8 copper or #6 Al Alloy, or larger for voltage drop.
per above:
AFAIC: Today, a 14-50R receptacle that is NOT for a range, MUST be connected to a 50 amp overcurrent device. Wire can be #8 copper or #6 Al Alloy, or larger for voltage drop.
So I do not see why Tesla is "choking" the 14-50 adapter to 32 amps.......
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
Please see my previous quote. I have a contact at ESA, and he confirmed this NOT to be the case. The only case where a lower ampacity breaker may be used, is where the plug is specifically for a range. I suspect Tesla may have changed this IN CASE the CEC changed.....(?)
mrElbe
Active Member
Interestingly, I had my car in for service and one of the things they checked is the UMC. Report says: "Tested and inspected customer's charge cable: Good, no issue. Vehicle charged normally @40 amps."
green1
Active Member
So what I'm hearing is that there's no truth to the idea that the 32A limit is a code thing? Which means it must be a Tesla thing.
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
It is possible (but not probable) that there will be a code change. If you read my earlier reply, the tone of the response from ESA was that the code would not change. Perhaps Tesla was speculating, and perhaps "someone" in Canada plugged into a 14-50, that was wired specifically for a range (at 40 amp), and bad things happened.
So, your point on it being a Tesla thing, is most likely.
I'd love to hear from Tesla on this.
mknox
Well-Known Member
I actually did this, but bad things didn't happen... I just popped the breaker. I was at a rental property I owned, and just pulled the stove out and plugged in to charge my car.
This is where I learned that many (most? all?) stove 14-50 outlets are wired up with 40 amp wiring and breakers. I've done the same thing (with the stove) at a friend's cottage, but now always lower the charging current to 32 amps or less.
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
This is probably the reason Tesla have taken this stance. If someone unplugs a range (and doesn't everyone have a second range in the garage(?)), and plugs in a UMC, it could be at fused at 40 Amps.
"Where a free-standing electric range, having a calculated demand of 50 A or less, is intended to be installed in a dwelling unit, a receptacle of CSA Configuration 14-50R, as shown in Diagram 1, shall be installed for the supply of electric energy to the appliance.
(5) ∆ The receptacle required by Subrule (4) shall be permitted to be connected to a branch circuit rated at not less than 40 A."
I still think it's a knee-jerk overreaction. Someone from Tesla, please set me straight, here.
mknox
Well-Known Member
I agree, and from some of @FlasherZ's postings on the subject, the same 40 amp wiring is permitted in the US too, so I wonder why it's being made out as a "Canadian" thing?
green1
Active Member
Has anyone confirmed if it even is a Canadian thing or if this is slowly rolling out in the US as well?
mknox
Well-Known Member
Maybe I'm drawing a false conclusion. I based this on the fact that the old UMCs were pulled from sale in Canada a few months ago, but not in the US, and that the issue is being brought up in the Canada thread. Maybe it will affect US customers as well.
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