New AutoPilot is horrible after update

[Supcom]

Again, you are making stuff up again, that you can't tell from the data. You don't know if the driver was abusing AP or was using FSDb as intended because the data is completely worthless.

How worthless? Take this example: You are exiting the freeway and disable AP, you proceed down the off-ramp and go through a green light and are hit by a driver running a red light 29 seconds after you had disengaged AP. That would be included in the NHTSA report even though AP was not engaged at the time and was no way involved in the collision. You are classifying that as abuse because it happened in an intersection. But there was no abuse, the driver was using AP appropriately.

NHTSA has made sure that the data is complete garbage. I can't think of any valid use for it.

• You don't know if the driver was using AP or FSDb.
  • You can't determine if the usage was appropriate or abuse of AP.
• You don't know if AP, or FSDb, was in use at the time of the collision. (Or just before it.)
  • You don't even know if the ADAS was involved.
• You don't know who was at fault.
  • Again, you don't even know if the ADAS was even involved.
• You don't have complete information from most OEMs.
  • You can't make any valid comparisons between OEMs.

All you can do is make assumptions and jump to conclusions that aren't supported by the data.

In all fairness, NHTSA will have access to data fields that are redacted from the public. And, when they decide to do an investigation and engineering analysis, they should be able to get more data for individual crashes.

I have no issue with their conclusions, since they do have access to better data. And, if there are things that can be done to make ADAS functions better, then, by all means, we should find ways to do them.

I would like to see Tesla include traffic light and stop sign control added to basic AP so that it's safer on secondary roads. This is something that AP does for those with EAP or FSD, so it would be a simple addition that might fall under Elon's moral imperative. IT seems silly that TACC and AP will stop if there's a car in front of you that is also stopping, but doesn't stop on its own.

 

[sublimejackman]

Again, you are making stuff up again, that you can't tell from the data. You don't know if the driver was abusing AP or was using FSDb as intended because the data is completely worthless.

How worthless? Take this example: A driver disengages AP and exit the freeway; proceeds down the off-ramp and go through a green light and is hit by a driver running a red light 29 seconds after they had disengaged AP. That would be included in the NHTSA report even though AP was not engaged at the time and was in no way involved in the collision. You are classifying that as abuse because it happened in an intersection. But there was no abuse, the driver was using AP appropriately.

NHTSA has made sure that the data is complete garbage. I can't think of any valid use for it.

• You don't know if the driver was using AP or FSDb.
  • You can't determine if the usage was appropriate or abuse of AP.
• You don't know if AP, or FSDb, was in use at the time of the collision. (Or just before it.)
  • You don't even know if the ADAS was involved.
• You don't know who was at fault.
  • Again, you don't even know if the ADAS was even involved.
• You don't have complete information from most OEMs.
  • You can't make any valid comparisons between OEMs.

All you can do is make assumptions and jump to conclusions that aren't supported by the data.

Yeah… so within that 30 seconds, it got foggy? snowed? heavy rain?

But overall you’re still missing the point. With any data set you would be here making the same argument. I’m glad the adults at the NHTSA were able to get at least some concessions out of Tesla with this recall.

IMO this doesn’t go far enough. They should force Tesla into notifying people on AP they are approaching an intersection and stop the car.

It should not even allowed to be used in heavy rain, snow, sleet or fog.

The marketing needs to adequately reflect its limitations.

This is the very least.

 

[stopcrazypp]

In all fairness, NHTSA will have access to data fields that are redacted from the public. And, when they decide to do an investigation and engineering analysis, they should be able to get more data for individual crashes.

I have no issue with their conclusions, since they do have access to better data. And, if there are things that can be done to make ADAS functions better, then, by all means, we should find ways to do them.

I would like to see Tesla include traffic light and stop sign control added to basic AP so that it's safer on secondary roads. This is something that AP does for those with EAP or FSD, so it would be a simple addition that might fall under Elon's moral imperative. IT seems silly that TACC and AP will stop if there's a car in front of you that is also stopping, but doesn't stop on its own.

That's explicitly part of the paid package for FSD (it's not included with EAP), so I don't see Tesla giving that for free. No other ADAS system includes that either, so I don't see this being an industry expectation.

AP stopping for car that is also stopping is just the same as how ACC works. In fact it is already better than some radar cruise which would not stop for a stationary vehicle (for example if it was pulling up to a stationary vehicle), only if it was a vehicle it was already following.

Given it's an L2 feature, there is nothing inherently unsafe about it not responding to traffic lights or stop signs.

 

[gsmith123]

This cuts both ways. Why doesn’t Tesla have to prove it’s safer? Just because it uses cameras and computers doesn’t necessarily make it better. In fact I would argue AP in 2023 has regressed significantly since MobileEye used radar.

I don’t have any proof per se, but Tesla likely shares dramatically more and high quality data with NHTSA. For instance, crash rates segmented by road type and other variables (weather, time of day, etc).

My guess: the data is less rosy than the public data but is good enough satisfy NHTSA and support decisions like pushing everyone to vision only. My guess is the radar AP2 software performed poorly with stationary obstacles like parked emergency vehicles on the road.

 

[sublimejackman]

That's explicitly part of the paid package for FSD (it's not included with EAP), so I don't see Tesla giving that for free. No other ADAS system includes that either, so I don't see this being an industry expectation.

AP stopping for car that is also stopping is just the same as how ACC works. In fact it is already better than some radar cruise which would not stop for a stationary vehicle (for example if it was pulling up to a stationary vehicle), only if it was a vehicle it was already following.

Given it's an L2 feature, there is nothing inherently unsafe about it not responding to traffic lights or stop signs.

I don't think anyone is arguing that you should get EAP/FSD features for free...

As I mentioned earlier, the suggestion is that if you are on AP, the car warns you of an approaching a stop sign/red light with the red beep beep notification ("there is a red light ahead"). If you continue to ignore it, then the car is brought safely to a stop before the intersection. That stop would then count (at the least) as a strike against your AP suspension count.

This would be strickly a safety feature and would not be out of line with other safety features Tesla offers now (like when a collision is likely during a lane change).

I'm still hoping this is something that comes along in a later update.

(Tesla probably won't because they have to justify the five figure price tag for the level 2 FSD software and this would dilute its perceived value)

 

[sublimejackman]

I don’t have any proof per se, but Tesla likely shares dramatically more and high quality data with NHTSA. For instance, crash rates segmented by road type and other variables (weather, time of day, etc).

My guess: the data is less rosy than the public data but is good enough satisfy NHTSA and support decisions like pushing everyone to vision only. My guess is the radar AP2 software performed poorly with stationary obstacles like parked emergency vehicles on the road.

Oh the NHTSA public data has the road conditions... and it's not a good look for any of the OEMs but def not great for Tesla.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't think anyone is arguing that you should get EAP/FSD features for free...

As I mentioned earlier, the suggestion is that if you are on AP, the car warns you of an approaching a stop sign/red light with the red beep beep notification ("there is a red light ahead"). If you continue to ignore it, then the car is brought safely to a stop before the intersection. That stop would then count (at the least) as a strike against your AP suspension count.

That's a paid feature currently. Being able to stop for an intersection is only there if you have FSD. If you ask for that you are asking for a feature for free that is explicitly a paid feature.

This would be strickly a safety feature and would not be out of line with other safety features Tesla offers now (like when a collision is likely during a lane change).

No, it would be different because those other safety features are generally secondary features that many cars include today for free (lane departure warning/assist and blind spot warning)

I'm still hoping this is something that comes along in a later update.

(Tesla probably won't because they have to justify the five figure price tag for the level 2 FSD software and this would dilute its perceived value)

As mentioned, it won't be coming for free because it's explicitly a paid feature currently and other brands don't have it either.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Were my hands off the steering wheel for more than 5-15 seconds ? Yes

Was I looking down at my phone occasionally sending a text? Yes a few times.

And I would bet that 90% of Tesla AP drivers do the above

Ironically, that's the same percent of fools or criminals who believe their actions are okay.

 

[Supcom]

Yeah… so within that 30 seconds, it got foggy? snowed? heavy rain?

Perhaps not snow, but heavy rain and fog very often happen suddenly. I'd expect that many crashes occur right after encountering heavy rain or entering a fog bank.

 

[sublimejackman]

That's a paid feature currently. Being able to stop for an intersection is only there if you have FSD. If you ask for that you are asking for a feature for free that is explicitly a paid feature.

No, it would be different because those other safety features are generally secondary features that many cars include today for free (lane departure warning/assist and blind spot warning)

As mentioned, it won't be coming for free because it's explicitly a paid feature currently and other brands don't have it either.

Exactly. As I said, it would dilute the perceived value of the five figure level 2 FSD package.

 

[Supcom]

Exactly. As I said, it would dilute the value of the five figure level 2 FSD.

Not by much.

 

[sublimejackman]

Not by much.

 

[sublimejackman]

Perhaps not snow, but heavy rain and fog very often happen suddenly. I'd expect that many crashes occur right after encountering heavy rain or entering a fog bank.

Yeah. Those things can happen. All the more reason that AP should ensure the driver is paying attention and be ready to take over at a moments notice.

 

[Supcom]

Yeah. Those things can happen. All the more reason that AP should ensure the driver is paying attention and be ready to take over at a moments notice.

I do agree with that.

 

[Tross86]

I put some black tape over my interior camera and AP is working beautifully now. No warnings about keeping my eyes on the road.

I’ve driven over 250K miles on AP since 2016, so spare me the lectures.

 

[MDR SEA]

I drove my 2015 MS with AP-1 for years and it was stable and reliable.
Then I upgraded to a 2016 MX with AP-2. AP-2 was noticeably different, seemed to hunt more - less stable.
Now I drive a 2023 MY with Tesla-Vision which suffered from phantom braking and lane changing..
Tesla then "spoiled" me for a bit with FSD Beta but it's gone now. I was not impressed with FSD, it was more fluky than Autopilot.
Now that it's gone, I had to re-learn to apply the brakes at traffic signals.
Post FSP Autopilot seems more stable though I still get camera fail notices.

Looking back, I wish they just woulda quit "improving" after AP-1. Don't fix what ain't broke!
Maybe put those efforts into fixing the auto setting on the wipers.....
Jeez, even 1975 GM got that one right!

Still, I wouldn't drive anything else!

 

[MDR SEA]

On another note, I do like this idea -

Mercedes-Benz debuts turquoise exterior lights to indicate the car is self-driving

Most street legal vehicles utilize a combination of three colored lights: white for headlights and reverse lights, red for tail and brake lights, and orange for blinkers....

www.techspot.com

 

[fhteagle]

No other ADAS system includes that either

OpenPilot and the various forks of it out there have had stop at stop lights for at least a year IIRC. It's not an OEM ADAS, but it is an ADAS. So not quite correct to claim that no other ADAS has that feature.

 

[AndrewZ]

On another note, I do like this idea -

Mercedes-Benz debuts turquoise exterior lights to indicate the car is self-driving

Most street legal vehicles utilize a combination of three colored lights: white for headlights and reverse lights, red for tail and brake lights, and orange for blinkers....

www.techspot.com

Yeah this is quite cool IMO and would really stand out because you so rarely see other colors in those spots besides the usual red/yellow/orange/white, certainly never see a turquoise

Not many other vehicles would need this, of course, because almost nobody else offers Level 3+ functionality either similarly limited or under any other conditions

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah this is quite cool IMO and would really stand out because you so rarely see other colors in those spots besides the usual red/yellow/orange/white, certainly never see a turquoise

Not many other vehicles would need this, of course, because almost nobody else offers Level 3+ functionality either similarly limited or under any other conditions

If this is a thing, I just hope there is some industry standardization, otherwise people will be seeing all sorts of different light colors and not know what to expect.