Negative Camber in the Rear and Expensive Tires

[sorka]

Also, I somehow screwed something up the first time I put my links in and my car ended up pumping up to the very top of the air springs. I looked like one of those silly 4x4s on a big lift kit with tiny tires. I started to freak out but found I had done something really silly. It was something like the ball link on the suspension arm is not on the center line between the two bushings, its offset a bit. If you put the link in "up side down" the ball ends up on the wrong side of the link center line and thus gives radically false feedback to the ride height sensors. Viola, you have a clown ride

That's exactly what I did:

3D printed lowering links

Had them installed upside down.

 

[lolachampcar]

Great minds screw up alike I guess.

 

[sorka]

So I was paranoid in the middle of the night....the middle of the night after the middle of the night I was already working on the car ...when I took the drivers side apart, I loosened the bolts AND I collapsed the arm a bit so that the camber adjustment wouldn't provide any preload. I then remove the bolts to make sure the bushings truly were free and clear.

When I did the passenger side, I loosened the bolts, but the arm was still firmly hold in place by fact that the ends were pushing against the bolts due to the pre-load provided by the camber adjustment.

So now I'm all paranoid that the bushings didn't actually rotate so I think I'm going to take the passenger side apart again and loosen the bolts and remove them and make sure the arm can be moved free and clear. I could of course be wasting my time. If the paint don't remains the same after I do this, then the time was wasted even if it is just a double check.


So the next question...should I order new bolts from Tesla? Any word on how many times these can be loosened and tightened? Is it standard practice to replace the bolts every time if they have to be removed?

 

[sorka]

At the alignment shop right now. Ran out of rear positive toe outward adjustment. Stopped at 0.13 toe with camber -1.2 on both rears. Leaving right toe at 0.08 for total of 0.21 toe. Will compensate slightly off thrust angle with front toe. Hopefully it drives straight without pull.

 

[sorka]

So the final printout shows 0.11 and 0.9 for rear toe. He said that .11 wouldn't go any further out.

Bummer is that my steering wheel is not straight now. There's no pulling so it's just a total toe issue rather than a failure to compensate for asymmetrical caster.

 

[austhill]

Awesome. This thread is a treasure-trove of information. I've got a P85+ with 21" wheels that screams through tires. About a year ago, I came across this thread and from the advice of lolochampcar and others started by setting my ride height as high as possible. However, I'm still seeing issues with premature tire wear. Next step is an adjustable camber mod. With all the options available today, is the preferred method:

https://www.evtuningsolutions.com/products/adjustable-camber-bushings-for-tesla-model-s-and-x

OR

BBC Speed and Machine upper control arms?

Can I order these parts and take them to a Les Schwab-style alignment shop for installation?

 

[sorka]

Consider that with camber bolts of any type that every time you adjust them, the ride height will change because the sensor links attach downstream of the camber adjustment.

If you're camber is asymmetric and you adjust the camber to the same, your ride height on both sides is now out. This means every time you adjust camber, you'll have to have Tesla do a ride height calibration or you'll need to use asymmetric lengths of ride sensor links.

This results in a far more time consuming alignment since modifying the sensor length or doing a ride height calibration AFTER alignment will effect camber again which means ANOTHER alignment. Rinse and repeat and make sure you use the same alignment rack because everyone is just a bit different.

I can't imagine why anyone would do camber bolts with an alternative that allows you to adjust camber without messing with the height.

 

[AWDtsla]

Poly bushings. A bit high maintenance for a daily driver (have to lube and check for galling), but I suppose what else could they use?

 

[callinectes]

I am experiencing extreme wear on the inner edge of both rear tires - more pronounced on passenger side than driver, but obvious on both. As a layman to the working of suspension, can anyone tell me how to get this addressed if I were to take it to an alignment shop - or make another suggestion if just any alignment shop can't do the work? IE, what would I tell them I want, exactly? There is so much information in this discussion thread that I am now more confused than when I found the thread.

 

[callinectes]

I forgot to mention - 2012 Model S P85 with active suspension (auto-lowering disabled)

 

[Merrill]

When I first purchased my 2013 model s I had negative 2 degrees on the rear suspension in the low setting. Way to much and also wearing the inside edge of both rear tires, I had the service department add some camber bolts to bring it in to negative 1.4. Still to much but when I replaced the tires I went with Conti sport contact and was able to get better tire longevity. I also have 21’s.

 

[SCP85]

Coincidentally I just started a thread on this here: How I doubled my tire life There are adjustable arms available now to solve the negative camber issue from N2itive.me . I was one of the early testers and they work really great. My alignment is perfect now. Problem solved.

 

[dark cloud]

Coincidentally I just started a thread on this here: How I doubled my tire life There are adjustable arms available now to solve the negative camber issue from N2itive.me . I was one of the early testers and they work really great. My alignment is perfect now. Problem solved.

just curious if you got Tesla to align it after or someone else.

 

[vesder21]

I am experiencing extreme wear on the inner edge of both rear tires - more pronounced on passenger side than driver, but obvious on both. As a layman to the working of suspension, can anyone tell me how to get this addressed if I were to take it to an alignment shop - or make another suggestion if just any alignment shop can't do the work? IE, what would I tell them I want, exactly? There is so much information in this discussion thread that I am now more confused than when I found the thread.

+1 and following.

 

[The Duke]

"There is so much information in this discussion thread that I am now more confused than when I found the thread."
I can make this simple if you like my options.
1) set your car to always low, raise in places you have to only; the car will remember them
2) get your car aligned to lolachampcar specs, you may feel they are a bit loose at times - get used to it
3) if your car will not align to those specs you need to get more parts, talk to your alignment shop about what is not working and post here with exactly what they say needs replacing

Tesla Model S

try for these specs, I am lucky as my car comes very close albeit at the edge of allowable Tesla guidelines. Mostly get the rear camber and toe in down.
https://www.lolachampcar.com/P85+-post-alignment.jpg

 

[zwede]

1) set your car to always low, raise in places you have to only; the car will remember them

That makes the negative camber worse. You want to set it to never lower. Always run it at normal height.

 

[The Duke]

That makes the negative camber worse. You want to set it to never lower. Always run it at normal height.

Fine, don't fix the problems and try to mitigate it with ride height. Or fix the problems and get better handling, mileage and looks.

 

[WASD]

Negative camber doesn't cause the excessive wear on its own, the toe out causes it. You need to get your toe close to 0 degrees.

You can lower your car with sensor links, get it aligned in the new standard height, make sure the toe is close to 0 degrees. You can't adjust the camber, but as long as the toe is near 0 your negative camber wont cause the excessive wear.

If you want to use camber arms to fix the rear camber, fine, but you'll also need toe arms in conjunction with them to get the toe 0.

 

[maximizese]

Negative camber doesn't cause the excessive wear on its own, the toe out causes it. You need to get your toe close to 0 degrees.

You can lower your car with sensor links, get it aligned in the new standard height, make sure the toe is close to 0 degrees. You can't adjust the camber, but as long as the toe is near 0 your negative camber wont cause the excessive wear.

If you want to use camber arms to fix the rear camber, fine, but you'll also need toe arms in conjunction with them to get the toe 0.

Yes. Toe-in and toe-out will aggressively wear the shoulders of the tires out a whole lot faster than negative camber. Anyone who has been ice skating or skiing can get the idea pretty quickly. Toe issues would also limit range and increase power consumption as well. As for negative camber, a little bit is actually a good thing thing for stability and handling especially around non-banked turns.

My tires have worn so evenly on our S85 RWD that I haven't bothered to rotate them over the 36K miles we've driven on them. The only time we use "low" on SAS is during a road-trip with a strong headwind at highway speeds AND on highways that are decently maintained. I never bothered to check if it's any more efficient but I assume it is.

 

[1percentcamber]

Thanks to lolachampcar for posting all his work on creating upper control arms. I was able to use that design to make upper arms to reduce the rear camber. Goal was as close to -1 degree camber on the rear with SAS at the Standard setting.
1. Started off with the lolachampcar CAD design and tweaked it so it could all be cut on a water jet with no machine work required.
2. Purchased 2 rear suspension integral links to use the bushings so as to not destroy the factory control arms.
3. Modified the CAD design to remove all the lightening holes. And enlarged the bushing holes so the bushing could be pressed in without additional machine work.
4. My first pass made the arms using the spec of plus .211 inches from the design on his page.
5. With the added length of .211 inches the camber with SAS on standard went to .5 degrees negative. Which was too little. Went back to the CAD design and shortened the bar this gave me the camber setting I was wanting.

Attached are images of the final control arms made out of 1" 6061-T651 bar aluminum cut on a Waterjet, my final alignment spec. I am going to pull out some of the toe on the rear even though I am within Tesla spec.