My friend's model X crashed using AP yesterday

[Tam]

...they explain in detail what the driver allegedly did and why his actions caused the accident.

It was apparent that the our friend's car in this case was not equipped with Chinese language and Tesla log reported that "no force was detected on the steering wheel for over 2 minutes...This is contrary to the terms of use that are agreed to when enabling the feature and the notification presented in the instrument cluster each time it is activated."

All the warnings of injuries and deaths are repeated many times (over twenty times) in the owner's manual.

Each owner is responsible for reading those warnings.

 

[Tam]

...Apparently the first point of action for a Tesla driver after an accident should be to disable any further communication of the vehicle with Tesla....

I am not sure that is a good legal advise to disable your car's communication so Tesla cannot get the log at will.

Doing so might mean tampering evidence and willful obstructions.

 

[Tam]

...bashing their own customers...

I don't see Tesla has bashed any Autopilot owners so far. Even in the case of Michigan owner, its initial statement was not harsh:

"We have no data to suggest that Autopilot was engaged at the time of the incident. Anytime there is a significant accident, Tesla receives a crash detection alert. As is our practice with all collisions, we immediately reached out to the customer to make sure he was safe. Until the customer responds, we are unable to further investigate.”


The follow up statement further clarify why "no data":


“We received an automated alert from this vehicle on July 1 indicating airbag deployment, but logs containing detailed information on the state of the vehicle controls at the time of the collision were never received. This is consistent with damage of the severity reported in the press, which can cause the antenna to fail. As we do with all crash events, we immediately reached out to the customer to confirm they were ok and offer support but were unable to reach him. We have since attempted to contact the customer three times by phone without success. Based on the information we have now, we have no reason to believe that Autopilot had anything to do with this accident.”

 

[bhzmark]

in my experience AP would have handled this just fine -- unless the lanes have significantly faded and haven't been repainted since the google map camera went by:

Google Maps

 

[Just a Reader]

I am not sure that is a good legal advise to disable your car's communication so Tesla cannot get the log at will.

Doing so might mean tampering evidence and willful obstructions.

It was meant slightly tongue in cheek but it almost seems as if you guys in the US are half-way on your way to prison the moment you are leaving your home.

I don't see Tesla has bashed any Autopilot owners so far. Even in the case of Michigan owner, its initial statement was not harsh:

"We have no data to suggest that Autopilot was engaged at the time of the incident. Anytime there is a significant accident, Tesla receives a crash detection alert. As is our practice with all collisions, we immediately reached out to the customer to make sure he was safe. Until the customer responds, we are unable to further investigate.”

Well, the first statement implies that they do have some information rather than not having any information at all. Anyway, with "bashing" I rather meant the statement they released with regard to the accident which is the subject of this thread. What exactly is Tesla's idea to release in detail what the driver supposedly did that night?

This is almost as if Airbus and Boeing were they only ones who had access to the flight recorders of their respective planes and about one hour after a crash they point their fingers at the pilot who was supposedly at fault. With all the data that Tesla is collecting form their cars they should be more discreet about using that data in public statements.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Apparently the first point of action for a Tesla driver after an accident should be to disable any further communication of the vehicle with Tesla. Otherwise the driver has to be prepared that Tesla will make all sorts of claims as to the driver's negligence by pointing at data which can not be verified. With billions of USD at stake, why should there be an automatic assumption that Tesla's claims are correct? They even shove in their claim that driving with AP is safer than driving without, even though the statistical support for this is still rather slim.

Yes, if you intend to blame "Autopilot" for your accident and not take responsibility for your actions then you might want to consider disabling any further communication of the vehicle with Tesla because otherwise they might find out what really happened via the logs (which don't lie). I'm not even suggesting any of these people involved in these accidents purposely lied - it's just that after a traumatic event, people don't necessarily remember and recall details correctly. "I didn't get any warning to put my hands on the wheel" might actually be "I wasn't paying attention and didn't see the warning to put my hands on the wheel".

Having said that (also rather tongue-in-cheek), I think Tesla has been as tactful as possible with their information releases. The fact remains that Tesla is still "at risk" from the bad publicity and negative press and needs to defend itself from the same when it's just not true or misleading FUD being propogated by the media.

Mike

 

[madodel]

It was meant slightly tongue in cheek but it almost seems as if you guys in the US are half-way on your way to prison the moment you are leaving your home.

Well, the first statement implies that they do have some information rather than not having any information at all. Anyway, with "bashing" I rather meant the statement they released with regard to the accident which is the subject of this thread. What exactly is Tesla's idea to release in detail what the driver supposedly did that night?

This is almost as if Airbus and Boeing were they only ones who had access to the flight recorders of their respective planes and about one hour after a crash they point their fingers at the pilot who was supposedly at fault. With all the data that Tesla is collecting form their cars they should be more discreet about using that data in public statements.

So they should just hide everything like VW and GM? What you keep pushing makes no logical sense. They are the manufacturer, of course they have access to the data logs. Tesla isn't hiding anything. They post facts that you call "bashing". You are either very paranoid or just trolling with a specific agenda.

 

[MP3Mike]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla makes the owner OK them releasing the details before they do.

 

[Az_Rael]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla makes the owner OK them releasing the details before they do.

I thought Pang hadn't been contacted by Tesla before they released the log information according to his friend.

I am pretty sure there is some fine print somewhere that all log data is owned by Tesla not the vehicle owner. Now, whether or not that SHOULD be the case is probably a separate subject for debate.

I do worry about that a little. If I was involved in an accident that got picked up by the media for whatever reason (via police report, etc), I wouldn't be too keen on Tesla making statements about what I did or did not do to the press.

 

[Just a Reader]

So they should just hide everything like VW and GM? What you keep pushing makes no logical sense. They are the manufacturer, of course they have access to the data logs. Tesla isn't hiding anything. They post facts that you call "bashing". You are either very paranoid or just trolling with a specific agenda.

Nonsense. Companies like VW hid their own mistakes. I can't recall VW making accusations in official public statements against individual drivers (= their customers) for driving negligently, violating Terms & Conditions etc. etc.
And no, it's certainly not a matter "of course" that a car manufacturer accesses the data logs of a crashed vehicle without the owner's consent and even less so to make these public without the owner's consent.
Perhaps it's an issue of different attitudes in the US and in Europe but I can give you a guarantee that there will be a backlash in Europe once people realize that they are spending a lot of money on a surveillance tool of a company that has absolutely no respect for the privacy concerns of its customers.

 

[scottf200]

<snip>
Perhaps Autopilot can refuse to activate on certain roads? But if you're going to introduce automatic steering it has to be idiot proof. Either the car steers itself safely enough on certain roads or it doesn't. And that means (at least to me) not hovering over the steering wheel with your hands or loosely holding the wheel.
<snip>

But what if AutoPilot/Steer hands 99% or 98% or ?% of the road you are on? And for how many miles? I've been on quite a few roads where there were hills or sharp corner that were *clearly* marked ahead of time to slow down and if I did not slow down manually (click TACC -5mph a couple times) that I don't think AutoPilot/Steer would have handled it. I was 100% happy to use AP/S 98% of the time and to do more manual intervention as necessary. Always have my hand(s) on the wheel - not lap but touching so I can "instantly" feel if the car does something "odd" - vs me visually seeing (slower reaction) that it is doing something odd.

 

[Just a Reader]

I thought Pang hadn't been contacted by Tesla before they released the log information according to his friend.

I am pretty sure there is some fine print somewhere that all log data is owned by Tesla not the vehicle owner. Now, whether or not that SHOULD be the case is probably a separate subject for debate.

I do worry about that a little. If I was involved in an accident that got picked up by the media for whatever reason (via police report, etc), I wouldn't be too keen on Tesla making statements about what I did or did not do to the press.

Come on, I'm sure you wouldn't mind such a call from Tesla after you have just totalled your car and the traffic cops are looking into the matter: "Excuse me, Sir, I'm calling from Tesla. In order to cover our a** and to protect our share-price I'm sure you wouldn't mind if we looked at the logs and told the world exactly how you goofed up?"

Why not simply state something like " We strongly advise our customers to observe the instructions and to use AP on suitable roads and under permanent supervision by the driver only" or something like that.

When Princess Di died in that car accident, I'm sure it wasn't the kind of news Mercedes was keen to see. Yet I don't recall them being all over the press the next day claiming that the driver had hit the booze and that the foolish Princess had failed to fasten her seat belt.
Perhaps Tesla could also tone it down a bit?

 

[Pdub2015]

Come on, I'm sure you wouldn't mind such a call from Tesla after you have just totalled your car and the traffic cops are looking into the matter: "Excuse me, Sir, I'm calling from Tesla. In order to cover our a** and to protect our share-price I'm sure you wouldn't mind if we looked at the logs and told the world exactly how you goofed up?"

Why not simply state something like " We strongly advise our customers to observe the instructions and to use AP on suitable roads and under permanent supervision by the driver only" or something like that.

When Princess Di died in that car accident, I'm sure it wasn't the kind of news Mercedes was keen to see. Yet I don't recall them being all over the press the next day claiming that the driver had hit the booze and that the foolish Princess had failed to fasten her seat belt.
Perhaps Tesla could also tone it down a bit?

You're reaching, Reader. I don't recall anyone blaming Mercedes for Diana's death.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

When Princess Di died in that car accident, I'm sure it wasn't the kind of news Mercedes was keen to see. Yet I don't recall them being all over the press the next day claiming that the driver had hit the booze and that the foolish Princess had failed to fasten her seat belt.
Perhaps Tesla could also tone it down a bit?

Perhaps Mercedes would have been all over the press the next day had there been a couple dozen articles in the press and the driver of the Mercedes claiming that it was Mercedes fault that Princess Di was dead.

 

[Just a Reader]

You're reaching, Reader. I don't recall anyone blaming Mercedes for Diana's death.

To see a global icon being pulled dying from the mangled wreck of a car made by your company as the top story of global news is bad enough because of the visual impact.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Come on, I'm sure you wouldn't mind such a call from Tesla after you have just totalled your car and the traffic cops are looking into the matter: "Excuse me, Sir, I'm calling from Tesla. In order to cover our a** and to protect our share-price I'm sure you wouldn't mind if we looked at the logs and told the world exactly how you goofed up?"

Why not simply state something like " We strongly advise our customers to observe the instructions and to use AP on suitable roads and under permanent supervision by the driver only" or something like that.

When Princess Di died in that car accident, I'm sure it wasn't the kind of news Mercedes was keen to see. Yet I don't recall them being all over the press the next day claiming that the driver had hit the booze and that the foolish Princess had failed to fasten her seat belt.
Perhaps Tesla could also tone it down a bit?

From the various examples, it seems after a crash is detected and airbags deploy, the car automatically uploads the logs to Tesla from the time leading up to the crash. However, sometimes those logs don't get sent (perhaps because antenna damaged or if airbags didn't deploy). Then Tesla will have to get the logs manually (I know in some instances Tesla only commented after they got access to the car).

From what I can tell, Tesla typically starts out with generic statements, but when the press piles on and there is a lot of Autopilot blaming going on (esp. after the owner has spoken to the press with their account of what happened), Tesla will say what happened with the logs.

As for why people trust Tesla's claims with the logs, people just tend to trust what is written. As others put it, the person in the crash is not necessarily knowingly lying (although typically people tend to be biased in terms of assigning blame in accidents), but may not remember what happen, esp. because of crash trauma.
Why Can’t Accident Victims Remember What Happened to Them? | Smart News | Smithsonian

 

[stopcrazypp]

To see a global icon being pulled dying from the mangled wreck of a car made by your company as the top story of global news is bad enough because of the visual impact.

I sincerely doubt anyone cared about what brand of car that was at the time. I certainly didn't notice (it could have just as well been a BMW or a Jaguar). That's certainly different in this case where you have many articles and people pointing the blame at Tesla.

 

[KaiserSoze]

I don't agree to the conclusion that AP is a net loss of safety based on three accidents as these three incidents represent a very very minute fraction of overall miles that AP has worked correctly and safely. Incorrectly applied seat belts or child seats that are incorrectly used also kill but that doesn't mean seat belts or child seats are net loss of safety.

For collisions, we don't have enough public data. However, we can judge safety as listed by fatalities: one fatality per two billion miles when Autopilot is turned off, and one fatality per 130 million miles when Autopilot is turned on. This is fairly strong evidence that Autopilot does not prevent fatalities.

Returning to collisions on "restricted roads": Elon has claimed the accident rate on Autopilot is halved. However, the normal collision rate for cars is roughly 400 per hundred million miles travelled (https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812032). Half that (200) times the number of Autopilot miles driven (130 million) yields 260 collisions. Thus, even if this claim were true, we should have 260 collisions as data, but we've heard of only a handful. The other 255+ were not picked up by the press, for whatever reason (no police report, in a foreign country, driver doesn't blame Autopilot, Tesla non-disclosure agreements). Similarly, Autopilot could have prevented a huge number of collisions that we haven't heard about.

So, we have no way to judge, via statistics, whether Autopilot on all "restricted" roads prevents more collisions than non-Autopilot.

However, Tesla does have these statistics, and we do know that Tesla restricts Autopilot speeds on non-divided highways ("restricted" roads). Why? For safety, obviously. This is very, very strong evidence that Tesla believes Autopilot to be riskier on non-divided highways than on divided highways. If they had statistics that proved that Autopilot was as safe on restricted roads, they would have left AP speed up to the discretion of the driver, as they do on highways.

And we have corroborating evidence: we have seen two drivers on AP driving on restricted roads that did not prevent accidents which any normal driver could have prevented. The only AP fatality seen so far was on a highway in which vehicles are permitted to cross traffic. We have evidence that, in these accidents, Autopilot drove terribly. We have warnings like "There may be situations in which Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not detect a vehicle, bicycle, or pedestrian" listed in the manual. And lastly, we have the owner's manual stating outright that "Autopilot is intended for use on divided highways."

Finally, we have not heard much about Autopilot accident prevention on non-divided highways. At best, we have one instance of AEBS activating, which is always on and distinct from Autopilot.

 

[stopcrazypp]

For collisions, we don't have enough public data. However, we can judge safety as listed by fatalities: one fatality per two billion miles when Autopilot is turned off, and one fatality per 130 million miles when Autopilot is turned on. This is fairly strong evidence that Autopilot does not prevent fatalities.

This stat is completely wrong. There are way more than just one Tesla fatality just from the reported ones (not including ones that may not be reported in the media or anywhere on the internet).

I found three (non autopilot ones) just from the first page of google.
Google

Here's another one reported on TMC that did not get covered by the press as a Tesla fatality:
New Tesla Fatality - Single Car Accident.

 

[Eresan]

I thought Pang hadn't been contacted by Tesla before they released the log information according to his friend.

I am pretty sure there is some fine print somewhere that all log data is owned by Tesla not the vehicle owner. Now, whether or not that SHOULD be the case is probably a separate subject for debate.

I do worry about that a little. If I was involved in an accident that got picked up by the media for whatever reason (via police report, etc), I wouldn't be too keen on Tesla making statements about what I did or did not do to the press.

I asked my friend driver again. As off today, tesla did not contact him in any way. He was any questioned by police so far. He told police his hand was not on the steering wheel when the car ran off the road hit the wood posts. As we can see the photo of the accident location, the wood posts are quite close to the road. He immediately took over the steering wheel to try to turn the car back, the effort he made was only able to keep the car continue hitting more wood post and eventually stop instead of running down the hill.

Today on the Wechat message group he mentioned 2 points.
1. The car did not ask him to hold the steering wheel when the accident happen. It was still in the "within" 2 minutes range. (He did told police his hand wasn't on steering wheel because is on AP). He addressed if he did not put hand on the steering wheel, car will beep again in like 10-20 seconds and turn on emergency flashlight, and slow down to park somewhere. Apparently his car was in the regular AP driving mode when it happened. Tesla's official response emphasized the rule about warning to hold the steering wheel, does not apply the to moment when the accident happen, ACCORDING TO THE DRIVER

2. It kinda shocked us in the Wechat message group that driver said non of any air bag was deployed.

Again I'm a tesla fan, I own a 90d and have model 3 reserved. I pass those messages here only to warm the drivers to be super careful of AP, I'm also learning while I'm posting. I used to this this type of high way is AP friendly, but when accident happen, it happens in like 5 seconds.