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MS Refresh threshold
- Thread starter zivac87
- Start date
I can't figure out what you're referring to or asking about. Can you clarify terms?
And I don't know what you mean by "until car keeps max range". Shortly after it's new, it will drop some and won't have max range again.
What do you mean by "refresh threshold in kW"? Maybe you are just referring to the Model S refresh models, like post Spring 2016, so "threshold in kW"? Output power? Charging power? Regen power?
And I don't know what you mean by "until car keeps max range". Shortly after it's new, it will drop some and won't have max range again.
Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health
Anybody have any insight to the Model 3/Y battery cooling logic? My Chevrolet Volt had a very aggressive battery cooling logic trying to keep battery less than 30C as soon as plugged in or driving. Of course smaller battery… I do not have the cooling logic in numbers. I have 50K km of logs on...
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Apparently Model 3 has multiple types of batteries. M3LR with 82 kWh HVB won't show mileage loss until it reaches 79 kWh.
After it gets under 79 kWh "range loss" will be displayed even tho battery degraded much earlier.
I have started to believe same thing is going on with new MS.
It seems to be around 97kWh for the 21” Arachnid selection
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I’d be surprised if they do it differently on Model S. I believe they have been doing the same thing (degradation threshold + expanded rated-mile energy content above threshold) on all vehicles for a while now, but not sure.
@AAKEE is your man for this, since he knows the degradation threshold concept and how it works, and probably runs SMT.
The energy screens (I think) work differently in MS so I am not sure whether it is easy to figure out the degradation threshold like it is for Model 3/Y (nearly instantly can be determined with reasonable accuracy from energy screen at high SOC (and as long as you know the max display number, if your car is already below the threshold)).
@AAKEE already mentioned 97kWh threshold. That was presumably derived from info in the car screens. He could comment with demonstration of showing how to calculate the threshold for Model S, if he so wishes.
I don’t know the typical starting capacity or any of those details (FPWN, etc.) for this vehicle either.
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Thanks both! It is common knowledge for Model 3. I believe refresh is still new and sold in much lower volume but we will find it out eventually.
From my usage I'm 100% certain there is some threshold. While I abuse car when driving; I keep it constantly under 50% when not in use (but still regularly charging it to 90% when full power is needed) and charging via AC 90% of time. That would also lead me to believe battery handles discharge rates much better then high charge rates.
From my usage I'm 100% certain there is some threshold. While I abuse car when driving; I keep it constantly under 50% when not in use (but still regularly charging it to 90% when full power is needed) and charging via AC 90% of time. That would also lead me to believe battery handles discharge rates much better then high charge rates.
I use SMT in my new Plaid.
The old energy app (average and calculated range with typical like) does not exist. I know you could lure it to be visible with a voice command for a while, but not now as it seems.
Model S Paild has 99.4kWh full pack when new. I assume its the same for the model S.
(I saw EPA tests drawing 99.4kWh out of the pack.
Mine started at 95.3kWh, when connecting SMT after the 1000 km drive home.
I havent driven much since, been away.
The Nominal full pack seem to climb at every charge, and is now at about 96.5 kWh.
Several others seem to have about 97kWh nominal full after some time.
With the 21” I saw 96.5kWn nominal full and 559km estimated full range (SMT numbers)
It set the constant to about 172.6Wh/km.
This was with 55% SOC.
(I saw 172.2Wh per km on a full charge before driving to work.)
348 mi = 560km.
560x172.6 = 96.7 kWh.
I briefly changed to the 19” wheels in the menu and saw 97.3 kWh as the full range energy at the same time as the above.
My conclusion is that it is about 97 kWh.
Need to check it a little more as SMT in my tablet rounds the numbers. The logs in teslalogger get the numbers witout the rounding, so there it will be more precise.
Not sure if I got the teslalogger set up correctly before driving to work.
I can come back on this later.
BTW, my Plaid started out low, but the data from the 250 km drive to work indicates that the BMS is fairly off downwards.
After using 50% SOC on that drive, the SOC was adjusted up 1%.
Any charge ends lower than the target.
My own calc set the capacity to around 98 kWh at the moment.
That makes sense. Tessie puts Threshold at 96.2 kWh. It goes along with your estimate as it also shows 0.00% degradation at that value. Even if my cycle degradation is minimal after 11k miles ; car was manufactured in October 2022 per COC documentation, 18650 pack could be even older. That means calendar degradation should be apparent if there was no threshold.
Tessie calculates the capacity at the first time the car is connected to Tessie, or at 0 mi ODO and presents the average from the cars in the Tessie park.
But we know that the BMS has not been given the time (data) to estimate the capacity correctly at 0 mi.
We know that the pack is marked 99.4kWh when new, we also know that Tesla got about 99.4 kWh out of it.
Setting the initial value as Tessie does will not show the true degradation.
My Plaid was at nominal full pack 95.3 kWh after driving it home and connecting SMT.
Today 96.6-96.7 kWh, still rising for each charge.
The true capacity is at least 98kWh, judged from that the car estimated used SOC to 51% when the drive took 46.76 kWh energy.
After one hours sleep the SOC was measured to 1% higher, so 46.76kWh = 50% SOC, —> 100-0% is 93.52kWh, and the buffer is 4.5% on the Plaid as well.
The capacity is about 78kWh.
(The SOC numbers was with one digit, using these pointed to slightly above 98kWh)
My car is built march 27, and has been at low SOC more or less all the time.
New regulations do not allow Tesla to ship offshore with high SOC, so they deliver with low SOC (mine was at 40%).
Starting at a real capacity of 99.4 ( se statement below from EPA tests) or close to that, I would expect to have about 1%* calendar aging until now or so, these would be about 98.4kWh.
The science and my calculation match quite well and I expect the NFP to climb to about 98.
EPA test, Plaid 21”:
EPA test, 19”
There is only one true starting capacity, that is around 99.4kWh.
If one would like to use the degradstion treshold as the 0% degradation treshold it probably will be about 96.7-97kWh.
I saw the NFP alter between 96.5-96.6 today and the estimated range still was 559km according to SMT.
(I maybe need to use miles to get the real value where it shifts to 348. 348 mi = 559,93km so 348 should put it at 560 displayed, I guess)
*)
Panasonic 18650 calendar aging:
Slightly less than 25C average dfor three months put it at about 1%.
Total range, is this Tessie vice?
At least Teslafi get the range OTA in km and hundreds, but the SOC in whole numbers.
The whole SOC means rounding affects the result.
Looking at the range and NFP for my M3P in the teslalogger database these is very stable, for the same time in teslafi it jumps ups and down a about 3-7km.
Guessing the same, was too lazy to check the label.
I have 1 off topic question regarding battery insulation, since I don't have SMT/OBD to check it:
During extreme summer temperatures (35C) when car is parked under direct sunlight; is battery temp same as ambient? Thanks in advance.
I have 1 off topic question regarding battery insulation, since I don't have SMT/OBD to check it:
During extreme summer temperatures (35C) when car is parked under direct sunlight; is battery temp same as ambient? Thanks in advance.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
What is the max the car can display (560km?)? If it is 560 or 561, then you know that anything higher is rounding error. And the one in the low side is also similar amplitude so might be error as well.
I just got my Plaid two weeks ago, and lwft to the mediteranian asap. When I hot back I went to work asas, away one week at work so I havebt had much time to play with the car.
Takeaway from my M3P data:
-The battery get much hotter when driving than the ambient when used if the heat pump do not need the heat for the cabin (i.e about 15-20C outside).
-The battery heats from AC charging as well.
The battery doesnt cool of that fast so the average temp is well above ambient.
For the direct sun, I have seen about 5C hotter battery than the sun if just parked. (Parked in the sun without driving/charging during that day)
As i live far north, I guess a warmer place with a stronger sun might warm the battery more?
And, there might be a difference between the 3 and S.
I will know better when I have some weeks of logging the Plaid.
55% or below for a model S with NCA.
The difference between 30% and 55% is
Small. The big win is to stay at or below 55% displayed (57% true SOC).
I work one week at the time on airport. I often try to arrive at 7-20% and keep it around these numbers. 7% is actually no target other than a margin for traffic accidents etc, so I do not arrive to late.
This week (still at work) I charged the Plaid full for the first time, knowing I probwbly would arrive below 55%. It has been standing at between 51% and 40% as I found the time to try some accelerations.
55% or below is not bad at all. Cut the degradation compared to higher SOC’a in half.
Yes I noticed your previous posts regarding this topic. It's optimal for me to have it charged at 50-55%. It's Plaid and I often want it at 80-90% range to get all power which is easy to top up with 11 kw AC when needed.
When car is ready to rest it's even easier to deplete battery back to ~50%
When car is ready to rest it's even easier to deplete battery back to ~50%
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