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Model S/X as a taxi or fleet vehicle
- Thread starter Steph
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- ev taxis Tesla Inc.
Very cool! It looks to me more like a personalized mini train than a car, though. It runs on a defined track, to a predefined short list of locations (I presume you get to choose which terminal you are going to) and if there are turns, they also are defined by the track. All the cars are uniform with identical technology and are probably in constant communication with a central computer to prevent conflicts.
A far cry from driving on city streets with distracted drivers in the other cars, kids running into the streets, dogs and trash on the road occasionally and the need to decide in a split second whether it's a dog that must be avoided or a bit of trash than can be run over, or even the need for a split-second decision whether to swerve when one choice hits a kid and the other hits a dog. Granted, most drivers will make the wrong decision much of the time, but people will not want to leave it up to a computer. This "train" system avoids that by existing on a closed circuit.
That said, I'd love to ride in that thing. But, hey, I even enjoy riding the train at IAH.
What about the Roadster as a taxi? The first one is in service here:
Here outside the Tesla Oslo office. (I guess it's mostly about publicity, but if I'm going somewhere and travelling light - sign me up.)
That's funny. "Oh. You have a suitcase? You'll need to take the next taxi"
it exists already since the 70's in the us
Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) | Transportation and Parking | West Virginia University
you indeed select the station where you want to go, and you go there without intermediate stops
they are building one bigger network in Amritsar in india, and planning to start building a huge network in an other indian city (+100km)
I think having read they are both going to be citywide after some years
(i am no expert, just interested in this amazing piece of use of technology)
Back to @Richkae's calculations, there is a huge segment of the "car for hire" world that uses the Lincoln Town Car. Ford discontinued the model, and there's no consensus yet on the next town-car replacement. If Tesla could build them fast enough, the Model S (in black, of course) would be a strong contender.
Like elevator attendants at ritzy hotels.Perhaps for a while there will be freelancers who, for a fee, will offer to ride with you, chat, and tell you the sights as you drive by them.
Adm
Active Member
It would appear that a Danish taxi company plans to buy 50 Model S's, but I leave it to our Danish members to make an accurate translation of this article.
http://www.cleardrive.dk/2012/07/cleardrive-og-taxinord-4x48-tester-tesla-model-s/
http://www.cleardrive.dk/2012/07/cleardrive-og-taxinord-4x48-tester-tesla-model-s/
From yesterday's Q&A concall: (Elon talking)
"Because the cost of operation on the Model S is much less than the cost of operation of any other premium sedan, by far. It’s going to feel like you have a car for free. And particularly in places like Europe. It’s, like, $9-10 a gallon in Europe. You can spend a couple hundred dollars filling up your gas tank. Or you can spend some negligible amount recharging your car."
Just to close the discussion on my crazy toughts...
"Because the cost of operation on the Model S is much less than the cost of operation of any other premium sedan, by far. It’s going to feel like you have a car for free. And particularly in places like Europe. It’s, like, $9-10 a gallon in Europe. You can spend a couple hundred dollars filling up your gas tank. Or you can spend some negligible amount recharging your car."
Just to close the discussion on my crazy toughts...
The economics of using the Model S as a town car comes down to how long the battery lasts.
I think this is really exciting so I've been thinking about some details.
I've been thinking about another piece of the puzzle, charging:
If I have a small fleet of 10 cars, which is the optimal strategy for charging? A supercharger or twin chargers and HPCs?
Lets say the shifts are 12 hours long and worst case days exceed 300 miles ( 400 miles ballpark ). 12 hour of off time is enough to fully charge overnight, even at 10kW.
During that 12 hour shift, there is at least 3 hours of downtime ( usually 10 - 30 minutes at a time )
If each car needs 60 kWh of charging during the shift each day, thats 3 hours of HPC time, or 2/3 of an hour of supercharging time over a 12 hour shift.
( 145 kWh each day for 400 miles? Yes. You want to keep some range buffer in the cars, possibly up to 50 miles )
Lets assume 1 central charging location where your cars frequently idle waiting for work. ( near the airport ).
The HPC option:
Putting twin chargers in each car is $15000.
5 HPCs allows for 50 hours of plug time ( assuming no car needs charging in the first 2 hours ), and the 10 cars need a total of 30 hours of plug time.
That should give enough scheduling flexibility to get each car 3 hours of plug time.
That is 5*$1200 for $6000. The total is $21000
( 5 HPCs require 100 kW supply, about the same as 1 supercharger )
The supercharger option:
1 supercharger provides 10 hours of plug time ( again ignoring the first 2 hours ), or 15 40 minute blocks. Thats only 50% more than needed, but should be easier to schedule because they are so short.
( Note that you would most likely break them down into smaller blocks, probably 20 minutes or 30kWh at a time )
I am going to guess that a supercharger is $20000 ( 9 10kW chargers straight out of the car would be $13500 )
The HPC option lets you spread the HPCs around to different locations. If you need to do that, then the supercharger option just does not work.
If you need to upgrade to more distance each day per car, the supercharger option is more flexible - add another supercharger ( possibly at another location ) and you can. The HPC option adds more downtime and you run out of time in the day and can not add more distance.
Of course this all assumes that there is no battery life difference between supercharging and 20kW charging. Since there likely is, that calculation would have to be made.
However on average driving days, lets assume they are so much shorter that each car only needs 30kWh of charging, you could dial the supercharger down to 45kW. Is that slow enough to not hurt battery life any more than 20kW charging?
A third option would be if you could build a modular supercharger of whatever power you wanted. If you could build two 50kW superchargers or three 30kW superchargers for less than $20000 you have a system more flexible than the HPCs and is gentler on the batteries than the one supercharger.
Instead of 10 extra chargers on board in the cars, you move them off board into your modular superchargers.
I think this is likely the best option, depending on how many recharging locations you need.
I think this is really exciting so I've been thinking about some details.
I've been thinking about another piece of the puzzle, charging:
If I have a small fleet of 10 cars, which is the optimal strategy for charging? A supercharger or twin chargers and HPCs?
Lets say the shifts are 12 hours long and worst case days exceed 300 miles ( 400 miles ballpark ). 12 hour of off time is enough to fully charge overnight, even at 10kW.
During that 12 hour shift, there is at least 3 hours of downtime ( usually 10 - 30 minutes at a time )
If each car needs 60 kWh of charging during the shift each day, thats 3 hours of HPC time, or 2/3 of an hour of supercharging time over a 12 hour shift.
( 145 kWh each day for 400 miles? Yes. You want to keep some range buffer in the cars, possibly up to 50 miles )
Lets assume 1 central charging location where your cars frequently idle waiting for work. ( near the airport ).
The HPC option:
Putting twin chargers in each car is $15000.
5 HPCs allows for 50 hours of plug time ( assuming no car needs charging in the first 2 hours ), and the 10 cars need a total of 30 hours of plug time.
That should give enough scheduling flexibility to get each car 3 hours of plug time.
That is 5*$1200 for $6000. The total is $21000
( 5 HPCs require 100 kW supply, about the same as 1 supercharger )
The supercharger option:
1 supercharger provides 10 hours of plug time ( again ignoring the first 2 hours ), or 15 40 minute blocks. Thats only 50% more than needed, but should be easier to schedule because they are so short.
( Note that you would most likely break them down into smaller blocks, probably 20 minutes or 30kWh at a time )
I am going to guess that a supercharger is $20000 ( 9 10kW chargers straight out of the car would be $13500 )
The HPC option lets you spread the HPCs around to different locations. If you need to do that, then the supercharger option just does not work.
If you need to upgrade to more distance each day per car, the supercharger option is more flexible - add another supercharger ( possibly at another location ) and you can. The HPC option adds more downtime and you run out of time in the day and can not add more distance.
Of course this all assumes that there is no battery life difference between supercharging and 20kW charging. Since there likely is, that calculation would have to be made.
However on average driving days, lets assume they are so much shorter that each car only needs 30kWh of charging, you could dial the supercharger down to 45kW. Is that slow enough to not hurt battery life any more than 20kW charging?
A third option would be if you could build a modular supercharger of whatever power you wanted. If you could build two 50kW superchargers or three 30kW superchargers for less than $20000 you have a system more flexible than the HPCs and is gentler on the batteries than the one supercharger.
Instead of 10 extra chargers on board in the cars, you move them off board into your modular superchargers.
I think this is likely the best option, depending on how many recharging locations you need.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I've seen a number of references that the average daily miles of a NYC taxi is 180, well within the range of the 85kWh S, and the average length of each trip is 5 miles.
I've read that too. The average is important, but so is the worst case. The average might be 180, but the worst case day could be a lot more. You need to plan charging infrastructure for the longest day you want to support.
You could decide to support 250 miles as the longest day, and then just let other companies take customers that would put you over that, because the cost of the charging infrastructure to support more makes those passengers actually cost you money.
However my direct data is from talking with town car operators in the Seattle area. Thats where the 300 mile per day average number comes from. The worst case is a guess.
I think towncar trips average much farther than taxis. From north Seattle to the Seattle airport it is 20 miles, from my house to the Seattle airport is 30 miles.
Having the car support the average case with no charging time, and only need charging on the above average days will reduce wear on the battery. In order to plan we need data on charging rate vs. battery wear.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
If we assume the worst case scenario is a rare occasion then occasional supercharging should not have any significant effect.
Agreed.
Again more data is needed. A 100,000 mile year could be 345 days of 265 miles and only 20 of 400.
However it could also be heavily slanted by weekends: 104 weekend days of 400 miles, and 261 weekday days of 220 miles.
Yeah, I don't see how worst case is that big of a deal. You ask your fare where he's going first. If it's too far away or outside your comfortable range you let someone else take him/her. Many cabs specify only within the city or whatever anyhow.
I'm entirely focused on the town car business, not the taxi business. The beauty of the town car business is that the vast majority of it is scheduled ahead of time, and you can centrally manage which cars do which trips - and which ones get plug time.
Trying to pitch the EV conversion to the town car business, you need to convince them that they won't be leaving money on the table by having to refuse fares that the ICE cars could serve ( or if you do, you need to factor that in to the calculations and show that it is more than made up for in the gas savings by changing the fleet over ).
When a town car has a pickup to do at an airport, they aren't allowed to wait at the airport for very long ( at least in Seattle ), so they wait at a nearby offsite spot a few blocks away. If it is more than a few minutes - they can be plugged in.
As the town car company, putting in your own dedicated chargers at that location is very easy.
An airport taxi line is a fantastic place for charging, but there are many logistical problems. You would need multiple taxi companies to cooperate, or the airport to provide the service - that complexity makes it hard for a small operator to make any headway. And you have to deal with the taxis constantly shuffling forward - seems like a great place for wireless.
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