Model S March 2011 update

[drbradfo]

Quote : "After the Model S Signature Series, deliveries for North America will continue with the 300 mile batteries, followed by 230 and 160 options later in 2012."

This implies reservation holders will be able to choose battery size and then will be resorted in priority from there. Not good, IMHO. There is already a option to move up the list, and that's the Sig Series. I should be the 2863rd non-Sig USA delivery regardless of options or configurations.

 

[Dave5609]

Quote : "This implies reservation holders will be able to choose battery size and then will be resorted in priority from there. Not good, IMHO. There is already a option to move up the list, and that's the Sig Series. I should be the 2863rd non-Sig USA delivery regardless of options or configurations.

That's the way I read it and completely agree. I send customer service an email to clarify and will post their reply.

 

[AnOutsider]

Quote : "After the Model S Signature Series, deliveries for North America will continue with the 300 mile batteries, followed by 230 and 160 options later in 2012."

This implies reservation holders will be able to choose battery size and then will be resorted in priority from there. Not good, IMHO. There is already a option to move up the list, and that's the Sig Series. I should be the 2863rd non-Sig USA delivery regardless of options or configurations.

I read it the same. Not sure how I feel about it, but I like that they're not only going to have the 300mi available at launch, but will be pushing it. I think I may upgrade to the signature car now. Other than the engraved plate, does anyone remember what the signature roadsters have? I'll have to look that up.

*edit*

Each customer made a $100,000 deposit to join the Signature One Hundred Club and reserve their “Signature One Hundred” special edition Tesla Roadster. The “Signature One Hundred” edition includes a commemorative plaque in the cockpit personalized for the customer and signed by the company’s principals, a special Signature One Hundred trim package and all available options, including a state-of-the-art navigation system and a hard top. Deliveries of the Tesla Roadster are expected to begin mid-2007.

From Tesla Roadster ‘Signature One Hundred’ Series Sells Out | Press Releases | Tesla Motors

What was custom about the plaque? I thought all the plaques were the same, just reproduced and placed in the back of the vehicles.

 

[ckessel]

I read it the same. Not sure how I feel about it, but I like that they're not only going to have the 300mi available at launch, but will be pushing it.

It may be they only have the 300 manufacturing line up initially and while it's cranking, they'll be building the 240 line. No idea, but I could see valid reasons why they might be staggering the battery types.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Tesla Sets Price, Production Plans for Model S | TheDetroitBureau.com

Includes remarks about charge times once again;

"Tesla still hasn’t released official technical details, such as performance numbers or charging times. The latter will depend upon what charging system customers opt for. Using a special Level III 440-volt system, which electric vehicle proponents ultimate hope to see in widespread commercial use, a drained 300-mile battery could be recharged in barely an hour. But with a more conventional, 220-volt home-charger, the times might stretch to 15-hours or more.

Tesla will offer a super-fast, 220-volt 75-amp home charger that could trim the time to around 5 hours, but that could require extensive rewiring, as it uses more current than the typical American home.
For the 160-mile battery, home charging times with a 220-volt system will likely range between 3 to 8 hours, depending on the charger used."

 

[AnOutsider]

It may be they only have the 300 manufacturing line up initially and while it's cranking, they'll be building the 240 line. No idea, but I could see valid reasons why they might be staggering the battery types.

I guess I'm also surprised that it will be available in general. I'd always assumed, that like AWD, it was something that was going to take them more time and thus the reason for it not being available at launch.

 

[Doug_G]

This is quite exciting. With the 300 mile pack available right away, I'll definitely be going that route. Given my usage, I figure it will completely eliminate my need for an ICE car. And that's despite a road trip I take each year that goes through upstate New York, where AFAIK there are no opportunities for charging.

 

[ckessel]

This is quite exciting. With the 300 mile pack available right away, I'll definitely be going that route. Given my usage, I figure it will completely eliminate my need for an ICE car. And that's despite a road trip I take each year that goes through upstate New York, where AFAIK there are no opportunities for charging.

I'm weighing how much I want 300 miles now. It's rare I'd need it, 240 would almost always be enough for me even accounting for battery deterioration after a few years. An extra $10,000 is a hell of a lot of money for the rare times I'd need to make a longer trip. I could practically buy a cheap Hyundai for those times...

At $5k, I'd definitely get the range extension. At $10k, I don't really want it. The only reason I'm really considering it is because the 300's get early delivery preference.

 

[AnOutsider]

I'm weighing how much I want 300 miles now. It's rare I'd need it, 240 would almost always be enough for me even accounting for battery deterioration after a few years. An extra $10,000 is a hell of a lot of money for the rare times I'd need to make a longer trip. I could practically buy a cheap Hyundai for those times...

At $5k, I'd definitely get the range extension. At $10k, I don't really want it. The only reason I'm really considering it is because the 300's get early delivery preference.

Ditto my friend (and to have a SIG series!)

 

[Lloyd]

I will still need more information before I can decide on a battery. The 300 mile battery is newer chemistry and better power density. I am left with more questions.....
1.What is the weight difference?
2.Will there be a longevity difference?
3. Charge time?
4. Fast Charge time?
5. How will fast charging affect each of the different chemistries' longevity?
6. What will the performance be for each of the battery scenerios?

 

[Jkam]

I wonder if some of the P reservations that wanted the 300 mile range will step up and get a Signature Reservation. I understand pricing is not final, but a P reservation wanting 300 mile range is going to pay $70k and a Signature model (300 mile range included) is $80k. For the extra features that have yet to be determined for the Signature Series, it may be worth the $10k difference not to mention getting the car earlier.

 

[AndrewBissell]

European Signature 250 Edition Roadsters were quite a bargain if you wanted all the features they offered (including a CF hardtop, two-tone executive leather, ... I can't recall the rest!). IIRC it was order of 10K less than the separate upgrades.

 

[ckessel]

a Signature model (300 mile range included) is $80k.

Where did you get that number? If the Sig is really $80k with a 300 battery, then yea, I'll step up for that.

 

[doug]

What was custom about the [Roadster Signature Series] plaque? I thought all the plaques were the same, just reproduced and placed in the back of the vehicles.

See here. The series number and, if wanted, the buyer's name were engraved on the plaque.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I will still need more information before I can decide on a battery. The 300 mile battery is newer chemistry and better power density. I am left with more questions.....
1.What is the weight difference?
2.Will there be a longevity difference?
3. Charge time?
4. Fast Charge time?
5. How will fast charging affect each of the different chemistries' longevity?
6. What will the performance be for each of the battery scenerios?

The Panasonic NCR18650A batteries in the 300 mile Model S have been in production for a year already. By the time the car is out it'll be more than two years, so there should be enough time for Tesla to evaluate the batteries and for Panasonic to work out any issues.

1)
I've done a weight calculation before, and it is ~800lbs for 8000 NCR18650A cells in the 300 mile Model S. Assuming the 160 mile Model S uses 6000 Roadster cells that's ~580lbs, which works out to a cell weight increase of 220lbs. The 230 mile version will have the same weight increase if the rumor is true that it uses the same amount of cells as the 300 mile version.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...tleast-it-s-still-a-news)?highlight=ncr18650a

It seems like our price estimates are pretty accurate too (~$20k for 300 miles over the 160 mile):
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...rence-on-the-batteries-be?highlight=ncr18650a

2&5) Don't think anyone knows how it translates to real life (I imagine it's not that different from existing chemistries), but the battery charts are available here:
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-cgi/jvcr13pz.cgi?E+BA+4+ACA4001+NCR18650A+7+WW

3&4) Charge time will largely depend on the charging equipment, but assuming the same equipment, the charge time increase will be exactly proportional to the capacity increase (which you can roughly estimate using the range increase).

5) As for fast charger effect on life, if you want to charge in the same amount of time (for example 45 minutes), then the effect should be the same regardless of capacity. If you charge using the same amount of power (for example 50kW using the Leaf DC charger), which is basically charging a constant "mile per hour", the large capacity battery will be less affected, but will obviously take longer to charge full (since it has more capacity).

6) A larger battery has more available power at the same discharge rate. That means given the motor is sized properly to handle it, the 230 mile & 300 mile Model S will have proportionally more power available than the 160 mile version.

 

[AnOutsider]

6) A larger battery has more available power at the same discharge rate. That means given the motor is sized properly to handle it, the 230 mile & 300 mile Model S will have proportionally more power available than the 160 mile version.

Wonder if that be countered by the larger weight thus creating a wash scenario?

 

[howabout2]

6) A larger battery has more available power at the same discharge rate. That means given the motor is sized properly to handle it, the 230 mile & 300 mile Model S will have proportionally more power available than the 160 mile version.

This is fascinating. To date, I had been planning to get two 160-mile cars because neither my wife nor I need anything more than a 160-mile range. I had not yet considered that the performance of the car may be affected by the battery pack size.

I'm fine with the later delivery of the 160-mile cars, but would be disappointed if the performance wasn't the same.

Another thing that I'm not entirely clear on is whether or not the same option levels will be available to cars of every battery-pack tier. There doesn't seem to be any technical reason to limit the options available to a 160-mile car, but you never know what sort of trickery they may pull to lure people into larger battery packs for additional profit.

 

[Doug_G]

There doesn't seem to be any technical reason to limit the options available to a 160-mile car, but you never know what sort of trickery they may pull to lure people into larger battery packs for additional profit.

Totally unnecessary. Please tend to talk themselves up.

Adding lower versions of products tends to increase the sales of the higher versions. I know this sounds paradoxical but this has been my experience.

 

[ckessel]

Totally unnecessary. Please tend to talk themselves up.

Absolutely. They'll go in, look at the 230 mile and think to themselves. Well, I do drive from A to B twice a year and the 230 (or 300) would cover that. When, really, they could probably rent a limo with a personal driver for each of those trips for 10 years and come out ahead.

 

[Norbert]

It seems like our price estimates are pretty accurate too (~$20k for 300 miles over the 160 mile):

Yes, and it's an indication that the upgrades are priced reasonably, while showing once more that the battery price is a substantial part of an EV's price. Do you have an estimate for how $/kWh will evolve past 2012, not considering larger breakthroughs?

It seems on this forum there will be a healthy distribution of demand for the various sizes, while a reduction of the price (in maybe 3-10 years after introduction, depending on any breakthroughs resulting from current research) to $5000 for each upgrade, would substantially shift interest towards the 300 mile pack. (While also moving the base price down significantly.)

Overall, to me, it seems a large piece of the puzzle was added in an assuring way, plus the small surprise that providing a 300 mile option is already feasible at time of introduction (as this was in question until now).